Betters, than chatgpt could do. Thanks, jen. This is the Little White Schoolhouse in a still standing there today. A group of people got together in that Little White Schoolhouse and came up with an idea that that would end up changing the course of history, at least political history. In a time when america was hotly divided over the question of slavery. The people who met in that building decided they should start a new political party, a Coalition Party that brought together members of the Wig Party and free Soil Movement and also disaffected democrats who often had different political investigations for the country but who were all united around their operation of the moral crisis at the time of slavery. Now, they decided to call their new pliical party, the Republican Party. And the rest, as they say, is kind of history. Thend Republican Party would, o course, become the party of lincoln, the party that would end slavery and establish itself as one of americas two major political organizations for the next century and a half and still today. Its one of theistrys greatest tragedies that the Republican Party of Today Isth no longer tt coalition of people committed to the idea of fighting back against americas worst impulses because todays Republican Party is instead a cult of personality that basically revolves around one guy, Donald Trump. But theres still moments of brightness because today in wisconsin, the birthplace as i just walked you through of americas grand ole party, a new coalition came together to put its own stamp on american history. Earlier thisca evening a republican sheriff from iowa, you can see him right there, took the stage to introduce another republican, the daughter, of course, of a republican Vice President who has long been despised in many democratic circles for his role in pushing the war in rain rack, a wam who was once a member of Republican Party leadership, serving as the chair of the republican House Conference just three years ago. Yeah, she was there along with other republicans as part of a new wide reaching basically moral coalition who stood on the stage with the democratic nominee for president , d Kamala Harris, and said this. I tell you i have never voted for democrat, but this year i am proudlyea casting my vote for ve president Kamala Harris. Thank you. But mostly were not going back. I ask you to meet this moment. I ask you to stand in truth, to reject the depraved cruelty of Donald Trump. And i ask you instead to help us elect Kamala Harris for president. There are so many powerful forces that have been the intent on trying to demean and belittle and make people afraid, and there are many who know it is wrong, and then there are those who have the courage to speak out loudly about it and the conviction to speak truth. And, you know, it is so admirible when anyone does it and especially when it is difficult to do in an environment such as this. But Liz Cheney really is a leader who puts country above party and above self. Now, you may be sitting at Home And Thinking and you hear this a lot, this doesnt matter, nothing matters, Liz Cheney is not going to move the election. I happen to think it matters, but, listen, maybe youre right. But heres the thing, wisconsin is It State that has been won or lost by less than 1 percentage in the last two elections. It is always close and going to bese close. In that context pretty much every covote, every new coaliti number, everything may matter. This endorsement and Cheneys Decision to campaign for harris are also not happening in a vacuum alone. I mean in the last few weeks over 100 former republican officials have endorsed Kamala Harris. And believe me, and theyve said this, its not because they agree with everything the Harriswalz Ticket believes or isti advocating for. Its because they feel as Liz Cheneyel feels today, that Puttg Patriotism ahead of Partisanship Isnt an aspiration, its a duty. Cassidy hutchinson, a lifelong republican even though shes quite young but been a republican her whole life, former trump white House Aide put it this way with my Colleague Lawrence Odonnell last night. I am really, really proud as a conservative to have the opportunity to vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz in this election. I say to republicans who may be on the fence, i understand how frightening it can be to potentially break with your y party, but Donald Trump and j. D. Vance cannot be trusted with the constitution. They cannot be trusted to uphold our Rule Of Law, and they cant be trusted to enact responsible policy. Of course its good to have republicans like cheney and officials all speaking about the fact one candidate will defend the constitution and one wont. But, heres the thing, the whole lot of other republicans, prominent onesli voiced their oppositionoi to trump and very specific things about his ability to be commander in de chief, about his temperament and even his morality who have still stopped short of endorsing Kamala Harris. People like Mitt Romney who says he fears trump will target him and his family if reelected. People like former president george w. Bush, who trump has castigated andwh attacked at evy turn, people like john kelly, and people like mike pence, who would definitely know, whose life was literally threatened by Trump And L his mob on January H and whose safety was a matter of such indifference to trump, warranting only a so what. Im not saying its easy. Its never easy to go against your ownas political party. Liz cheney has definitely felt the consequences. I mean she was excommunicated from the party she spent her life, that her father spent his Life Serving in. But asvi Kamala Harris said tonight about the Threat Trump poses,ru there are many who kno it is wrong, and then there are those who have the courage to speak outhe loudly about it, an the conviction to speak truth. So mitto romney, george bush, john kelly, mike pence, we are 33 daysel from an election. If you arent going to speak up loudly now, your moment to play a role in the History Books may be passing you by. Joining me now are ben wickler, chair of the democratic party of wisconsin, and atlantic staff writer, mark leibovich. Thank you both for being here. Mark, im going to start with you because youre sitting with me. You were with Liz Cheney when she came out endorsed Kamala Harris, so that was a significant piece of news, but i want to start by asking you this does it matter question because you do hear this a lot. Do youth think it matters . There is this cavalier brush off you hear from republicans, and oh, Liz Cheney was roundly bootedas out of her party, she lost reelection. You know, theres no constituency for Mitt Romney, fort Liz Cheney. First of all, tens of millions of americans voted for Dick Cheney for president , for Mitt Romney for president. And there those all of who have been on republican tickets who are not voting for Donald Trump. Listen, The Key words here are Permission Structure. There are tons ofsi republicans out there and independents out who have voted for Donald Trump in the past, who have voted for many republicans who need that extra push. It is you get some credit, i guess, if youre going to say, no, im not voting for Donald Trump, but you get full credit if youre actually going to vote for the one person who can beat him. Let me b ask because youve covered them as well. Youvere covered all these peop. They have something to lose certainly as Liz Cheney did, but what is holding them back . Is that or something else . Penceis and romney both have said theyre not voting for Donald Trump, both are personal i think for , unsurprising reasons. Why theyre not going often you hear cutesy things like ill writeik in whoever. I dont quite know why. I dont know why they think theyre protecting themselves or i dont know understand whats stopping there. Ande then a whole different category where you dont know what Paul Ryan is thinking. George w. Bush in texas a couple weeks ago when i was interviewing liz and a couple days earlier she had endorsed Kamala Harris, and i asked her who her dad was voting for, and she said her dad was voting for Kamala Harris, made a little news. The predominant followup i heard from a lot of people that day is Wheres W. . When are we going to hear from him . There is a pretty solid core of republicans, but some really big names are out there who havent really spoken out. I think this is as existential an election as people have said. I hate to be overstating this, but it is that big. It ishi and the Liz Cheney news, which is significant newss ben, let me go to ask a similar question. Its also the birthplace of the Republican Party, as we all have been learning over the last 24 hours. But as youve talked to people after that rally and even in advance of it, how much does a Liz Cheney do these Endorsements Of T these Nationa Security Officials and republican officials matter to the voters were talking to in your state who may be on the fence or waiting as mark just said for a Permission Structure . These things do matter, and they matter to two different groups of voters. Theres one group of voters that are the typical Swing Voters thate people talk about. These are people who dont pay Attention Toar politics, who thk about politics the way you and i think about the javelin at the oolympics which is something were awareic happens every fou years. Itser not something were seekg out. For voters who agree that Joe Biden Andha Kamala Harris are t persons that might filter out. For the highly engaged, conservative republicans whose first and corefullity is to the Flagit And Constitution and the united states of america. And for them Liz Cheney shows you can be yourself with your conservativers commitments but T Country over party, over anything else, and p Cast A Balt and still maintain and build on integrity as a person. And open the door for those voters who normally would not be Swing Voters in any stretch of the imagination, that can matter in a state likely to come down to lessdo than one percentage point. It was a really compelling event to to watch on television. Who are these undecided people, and what are they waiting to hear at this point in time . I mean, how do you assess the percentage or a number of undecided voters in wisconsin . And kind of what are they on the edge over . Its less than 5 of the electorate at this point, and were doing everything we can to reach them while also reaching all the folks who will vote for harris in their houses right now who havent returned them. Anyone who wants to help us reach those folks, volunteer to chip in and fuel the get out to vote. The of them are generally vote republican but think the Abortion Ban is an uncrossable line and are trying to decide can i really vote for someone who supports an Abortion Ban given they agree with me on other things . For some people its the opposite. There are people whose faith tells themte they can never vot Forne Someone on the other side. That group is a lot smaller, ill tell you. Butle i agree with Kamala Harri on taking on the Price Gouging of big companies and thinktoid be better on the economy if they vote for harris. Some of them think all politicians are t crooks. Theyre fed up. Kind of like Donald Trump at least obviously is correct. Talking about how it will affect their life directly, the 4,000 Trump Tax and others is different. And you sometimes read about a Medianme Voter in a poll. In talk to those people at the door they have a Grab Bag of views. Its about showingg up, listeng to them, and connecting at a level of shared views often with trusted messengers that makes a difference. Then theres this other group, the conservatives often veterans furious about trumps diserment for the core principles of this country. Those folks are on the floor in different events. To the point of those veterans, and that was a very comprehensiveer breakdown. Thats why hes such a good state party chair. One of the things that struck me in the Speech Today was the messaging of it, i mean patriotism, love of country, a big chunk of the speech on kwlu ukraine, those are obviously messages that work well for Liz Cheney. And thats a speech i think and you tell me if you disagree here, could have been by a protump republican 33 days before the election. Youre trying to reach a lot of different people at this point in the election. You could have heard that speech from Mitt Romney, any number of main stream republicans. Liz cheney does specifically narrow her focus to the constitution, to the rule of also Foreign Policy a little bit. And these are three core, pretty traditional republican constituencies. Then Theres Liz didnt get into this but also part of it is just conduct, basic deesance, it was Asi Basic American Tenant Tt You Sortam of heard her alludin to repeatedly, and i think thats a big part of the harriswalz message, just basic decency. I wassi out with alzheimer a couple weeks ago. You just hear nothing but neighbor, neighbor, neighbor. Thats a big world you hear with them. As far as the basic core principles of conservative, i think they definitely hit that today. Obviously if its the birthplace ofsl the Republican Party, it seems consistent. It was a smart message i thought there today. But so interesting this many days out from an election. Mark leibovich, thank you so much. Ben wikler, youve got 5 of undecided voters 5 to reach. Also javelin is a big thing i think about a lot, so ill give a Shout Out to the javelin. Appreciate you both. Coming up trump spent his first term trying and failing to prosecutean his political enemi, but what happened a second term . Legal experts worn trump will try again if he returns to Power Rb we know that, and this time the results may be very different. Well discuss why. Ween have a very quick break, a well be right back. We have a v well be right back. Kamala harris can never be forgiven for erasing our border. She should be impeached and prosecuted for her actions. Vice president harris is just one of many people that Donald Trump believes ought to be prosecuted. On multiple occasions we showed you one of them, but multiple during the campaign, he has fantasized about exacting legal revenge on his political enemies including president biden, nancy pelosi, Liz Cheney, and her fellow members of the January 6th committee. And now a new piece in The New York Times this out today, cites experts warning trump must be taken at his word. The paper surveyed 50 legal experts. 39 of them said it was likely or very likely that trump would order the Justice Department to investigate a political adversary, if he were to be elected to a second term. Joining me now to discuss, emily, author of The New York Times piece and ankush cudory, his latest piece, both excellent pieces. May scare you but have great information. So let me start with you. There were a number of stark and alarming quotes in your piece. I mean, this one stuck out to me that kind of summed it up by the counselor of the federalist Society And Assistant acting Attorney General for president george w. Bush. This is what he said. Theres every reason to believe that Donald Trump would seek to use criminal enforcement in the fbi as leverage for his personal and political ends in a second term. The risk is more concrete with a higher probability than any election in my lifetime. 42 of the former officials surveyed said its very likely trump would create a significant threat. Also the norms and how the norms have been abided by a number of President S. I wanted to ask you as people are trying to understand the specifics, like what do these experts fear could happen when the norms are not abided by, that The System may not be prepared for . Yeah, thats a great question. Since Watergate Weve had this example of Richard Nixon who was pushed to resign after he meddled in an fbi investigation. Right, we have a Blaerl Burglary of the national democratic headquarters at watergate and nixons people interfere in the investigation and thats why nixon lost his presidency. Since then its been a Bedrock Assumption President s do not try to use the Justice Department for their own political ends. And especially they dont try to prosecute their adversaries for politically motivated reasons. Thats an abuse of power. But all of that hinges on norms. Because the Justice Department and the Attorney General work for the president , they are part of the executive branch, the person who restrains the president is the president. Its not an outside check. And thats why this is such a delicate situation. And then when you have a candidate like former President Trump who is being so loud and clear about his plans to prosecute his enemies, the people we surveyed who work for the Justice Department formally, who were at the white House Counsels office, they were the Government Officials who cared about upholding these norms. And what theyre saying is that theyre alarmed. Theyre pretty freaked out by the things hes saying because they understand how much The System depends on the selfrestraint of the person in the White House. Yeah, its such an interesting the consistency over presidencies i mean i worked for two President S, and there was just this, of course, unspoken respect for the independence of the Justice D