Is say solely rejected the bipartisan bill and lawmakers really dont know where to go from here you know youve been around washington a long time do you think is does he has any strategy to it is do you think he shrewd or he just doesnt know or what. I think he does whatever feels good at the moment he thrives in the adulation of the crowd even if its a crowd of one whos before him and so hes not an idealogue and i actually thought that was a positive thing when he was first elected i thought he could you know get through all the the tribal partisanship in washington but so far every time he veres towards the center the hardliners in the Republican Party pull him back and we end up exactly where we were before so. I cant i cant predict where its going to go on Immigration Reform i fear the hardliners will win once again for all the years i knew him and there will be thirty he was a centrist right. What do you make of this just playing to the base. He was a registered democrat i think his attitudes particularly on social issues seem to be liberal liberal yes and his positions now particularly on social issues veer to the right and he is hes playing to his base and i think he is convinced that the bases his insurance policy thats how he got elected he thinks he can assemble the same coalition again in two thousand and twenty should he run for reelection and so whenever he ventures away from the base he comes back and does something that he believes will endure himself even the crude language he used last week crude racist language and they do it lee after he evidently was on the phone bragging to friends of the base will love this then he saw the complete blowback he got not only in this country but from around the world then he said oh i just didnt say that we have this bizarre discussion in washington over the exact wording that he. It or did not use with some people i believe on the republican side why and basically to protect him was in general john kelly supposed to reload. But he cant control donald trump and he cant control donald trump in the off hours i believe during the day in the white house he monitors any phone calls that get through to the president but at night president loves to just sit on his phone and call this wide circle of friends and acquaintances many of whom he once threw out of his life and then he welcomes them back so he talks to him a lot of people and some of them really really reinforce his worst instincts and on Immigration Reform john kelly was that. The department of Homeland Security before he came to the white house and what got the president s attention was again the way he seemed to eagerly crack down on on immigration what do you make of the mole obannon white house dont testify testifies subpoena what do you make of the whole rhythm well well you remember the nixon days when an executive privilege and also bill clinton tried executive privilege that is a formal request at the white house estimate they havent done it and its highly doubtful that they can shield bannan from answering questions by invoking executive privilege especially during the time before donald trump even became president so i think bannon understands that hes cut to tell the truth to save his own skin and all the indications are that he intends to do that with the with the special counsel eleanor was enjoy talking to you thanks so much thank you turning now to the ongoing russia investigation former white house chief strategist steve benen has been subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury in a. Federal judges signaled the trial of former Campaign Manager paul man of sorts and his deputy regain its may start in september october right before the twenty eight hundred midterms lets talk about the latest with constitutional scholar and Harvard Law SchoolProfessor EmeritusAlan Dershowitz he joins us via skype alan is also a bestselling author his newest is trumped up how criminalization of political differences in dangers democracy and in minneapolis richard painter professor of law at the university of minnesota and he was the chief white house ethics loom during the administration of george w. Bush and hes vice chair currently of citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington. Has now reported that bannons attorney bill burke was on the phone with the white house during the entire Committee Interview is that normal richard. Well. They turn to the private attorney for him to find a. Call wherever he wants thats is. Thats up to the white house whether theyre going to call. Usual for the white house to talk with attorneys for rappers at a criminal defendants in attica said it where we had Scooter Libby and died it was that a staffer Vice President cheney when i was in the Bush White House and i dont recall his authorities talk at added body of the white house that i dont know for sure other than. But it would be highly arguable is there a policy prohibiting that but thats not the type of play that all of the white house would ordinarily like at staff to figure out and we dont know who he was talking to the one of those what do you make of it. Well i think at each criminal lawyer would always like to get as much as possible and stay in touch obviously with the white house issued an executive privilege come up relationships come up so im not surprised that doesnt seem to me anything shocking about that and id need to know what was discussed before i could come to any conclusion. Is so rigid nothing has been like this to your knowledge during the bush administration. Not that i know of bob i doubt that a white house staff would be checking and when they affix lawyer ever tom i want to talk to a criminal defense lawyer way sir i told them to stay out a particular part of my whether its a vest a guy friends or criminal cases protect my part of the white house staff is supposed to stay away from unless they go through the counsels office that if they are ordinary approach but not necessarily always followed lets remember though that during the First Bush Administration president bush court. Caspar weinberger and five other people on the eve of their trial and the special prosecutor himself came to the conclusion that that was part of a cover up and that it was intended to in the investigation and in fact did in the investigation so you know theres a history of this kind of collaboration between ho tensional defendants who could turn on the president and the white house none of its good none of it should happen we should have a strict separation between prosecution and the executive branch but thats not the way our system works unfortunately but alan shouldnt the public have basically the right to know i mean what are they hiding no of course but you know the public does every right to know what lawyers and clients discuss they also dont have a right to know when theres a joint Defense Agreement i dont know whether there is a joint Defense Agreement but yes in general transparency is a virtue in a democracy but there are also certain privileges executive privilege lawyer client privilege spousal privilege that keep public from learning everything that theyd like to learn about an ongoing case i know about small. Lawyers but what religion is executive privilege. Well the executive privilege is im probably just third from tom to tom by president s or people work for president s that would protect the elaborations. Within the white house particularly the president s lab rations and communications with paypal lot of staff and others in the ministration this is not a privilege with a lot of support the case law at saw a question at all its often asserted and then they. Resolution is as negotiate at whether its back to what will be disclosed a bubble not made his clothes and hair this situation we have outside attorneys talking to white house staff. In the its not this quote the reason is not going to be disclosed we have no idea who the attorneys talked to if somebody did find out who and they ended up having to testify in front of congress it would probably be a prey way claim of executive privilege white house staff member talking to someone elses criminal defense lawyer. In us and less you know but out without say what happens when we just dont know who they spoke with. Alan does the subpoena to the grand jury for ben and does he have to answer questions there yes every american at west including the president of the United States we know that from the nixon tapes case and from the clinton case now people can negotiate with prosecutors and sometimes they end up not going in front of the grand jury but instead having and if you sometimes under oath sometimes not it doesnt much matter whether its under oath or not because its a fill a need to lie to prosecutors even if its not true but the law is clear that every person has to testify in front of a grand jury unless they invoke prove that you can so grim anation or other legal claims but just because youre the president of the president s assistant or in the white house that doesnt bring a crime to grand jury. Alan riches stay right there well have more politicking right after this break. Is. Going to fit into steve jobs kids by coming up with Innovative Products you know the electronic gadgets market is a little bit different in the car business because the car business is kind of bound by the highway system and youre bound by the whole infrastructure that is the Automotive Industry and the lobbying of the Automotive Industry so its a bit difficult to be disruptive in the industry in a way hes going to open up his charging stations with one nine hundred fifty style burger and shake joints with servers on roller skates ok thats thats an idea that might take off that might be a new like starbucks like third place that people go to to have an experience that might work in. The new economic war is unfolding in the realm of education the right to education is being supplanted by the right to. Education. High education is becoming just another approach to pool. But its not just about education anymore its also about running a business where you know most of the regime. Literally could to me. Which is the place of students in this Business Model before college i was born now in an extremely High Education the new Global Economic war. I think that is what the world needs some confidence in space on on coming i strongly believe that the u. S. And europe have pretty please. The United States has been a partner in creating that tool based system. Im afraid that. Through it forwards and especially language President Trump has been using and im not confident that the contribution of the United States to that school based system. As relevant as its been. Back to politicking im talking with constitutional stollen Harvard Law SchoolProfessor EmeritusAlan Dershowitz hes joining us via skype and richard painter the former chief white house ethics lawyer during the administration of george w. Bush and alan can counsel moeller talk to President Trump if he wants to. If the president wants to talk to him sure theres no problem with that at all look there are there are two extreme positions the one extreme position is that most are constantly subpoena the president make him come and answer questions on any subject without any advance notice of what the secure matter going to be thats one position the other position the white house takes is no the president should be asked questions in writing and he should be able to answer it in writing. I think in the end theyll be a compromise and that will be an agreed upon interview probably in the oval office probably was some time limits probably with some advance notice as to the subject matters to be covered and probably with his lawyers present and it will be transcribed but perhaps not b. O. T. A. Thats the likely resolution rigid good my goal is smoke play any part in the mall investigation. Well a cada could get him some line of questioning protect life or pay plaques they have my eye on on some odd they bought that stat whats written on the buckets robber maher may very well have other avenues through which hes already found out and i dont think hes going to give credence to everything thats thats on the book but it certainly gives rise to some ideas for questioning if he doesnt have them already and i know he did you express concern about investigation dealing or should we investigate President Trumps mental health. No i dont think so i think he went through a physical and mental examination where you remember in the one nine hundred seventy s. I went to the Union Representing dissidents some of whom were locked up in mental hospitals because it was believed that if you oppose communism you must be mentally ill in south africa they said if you oppose the court you must be men real in trying to be locked up dissidents i just dont want to see the psychiatry zation of political difference its bad enough that we see the criminalization of political differences in less there is a very very very hard evidence of twenty fifth amendment type incapacity i just dont believe thats a proper subject for us an independent or special counsel to investigate who is you what do you think. I dont think thats where then the proper subject of robber mullers a vast a geisha and they twenty fifth amendment doesnt and i find that suggest a mayor that the Justice Department has a role other than that that the attorney general is of course a member of the cabinet and the Vice President the cabinet ordinarily traeger of a twenty fifth amendment and appropriate circumstances and then the matter goes to the house and the senate i do file that. You know the twenty fifth amendment which was adopted in the late sixtys and the nuclear age does contemplate the risk and as a stream way high risk in some circumstances that you could house somebody in a presidency who would start on nuclear war which could mean the end of human civilization. I think we have to take that very very seriously i mean its just not for the special prosecutor but its for the cabinet and the house the senate and i dont think we need to we should propose this i dont i think there are serious issues here by green need to be discussed by the side it by and by the by the paddock members and members of congress. Ill play with a simple part of the puzzle a glamour model of time whatever you want for the other guys there is the ad about how on earth discussion when we look at his behavior alan do you worry about President Trump no i dont. Met him on a couple of occasions i dont know him well he does not seem to me to have the symptoms of the kind of Mental Illness that were talking about your look we once had a secretary of defense is name was james for still i think theres a ship named after him he was a paranoid schizophrenic who ultimately jumped to his death from Walter Reed Hospital because he thought the communists were chasing him if we havent had a president like that obviously we would have to take actions but i worry that strong disagreements with the president s politics and style may become confused by some psychiatrists with Mental Illness we know that Barry Goldwater who ended up being one of the most stable members of the United States senate and a real paragon of stability and virtue was declared to be mentally ill by over a thousand psychiatrist when he was running against Lyndon Johnson who himself was not a paragon of stability and of course was a great civil rights president but got us into a very difficult war so i three much worry about the politicization of Mental Illness and mary creating a pathology out of the political disagreements we have to stay away from that though we have to be careful to make sure that no person who has access to the Nuclear Trigger ever has the kind of Mental Illness that james foresaw i membered i will resume painting do you worry about the president wrong. Oh i look at the twitter fade i look at the spaces i look at they statements is my. Ad if you put that side by side but Barry Goldwater theres no comparison. Ive never seen and i won as donald trump does and the public arena and such a high position are its its extremely worrisome the way he obsesses on Hillary Clinton the way he obsesses on the Russian Investigation the way the tax man our days i mean its all over and over again and it doesnt make sense a lot of it it doesnt appear to be a coordinated political strategy. And he has comparing his button to the size of the North Koreans button and thats not the type of talk i want to hear from someone who has the power to end human civilization but the twenty five of the moment as a verb are high bar i think the Program Approach is to have this discussion to take it seriously not the pope would have psychiatrys involved in the discussion but it doesnt bar Robert Mueller and actually remove a president under the twenty fifth amendment would require the majority that covered and then it goes to the house and the senate its very unlikely unless indeed these concern