Financial institutions so i do think its going to have some practical effect but to your point there was already a toxic environment in many of those parties were already there sanction or subject to such enhanced diligence now mr fry just a technical question i know that the how being your clients to navigate various sanctions regimes and. Formally speaking of these are not sanctions this is some sort of quasi i official document a little bit like a Wikipedia Page verified by treasury secretary was the right way of thinking about this report in legal terms does it actually compile the american the Financial Institutions to do anything about the people who are no it doesnt and treasury stated right in the report this is not a sanctions list which is why it was so surprising when later on in the week treasury and secretary minutia mention that this report could be a preview of potential future sanctions targets after heavily caviare in the report saying its not a sanctions list and there are no legal restrictions so. Nobody has any legal obligation to do anything with respect to this report but i think youll find that when you work in sanctions long enough you see that the private sector does respond sometimes severely even when they dont have to when you get into this area of law well i guess its better to be saved than sorry. There are two main strategists as far as i can understand that the wealthy russians can employ in the situation one is to rely on the law based in washington and try to secure that capital is an investment and another would be to liquidate merican holdings altogether we do you think is more prudent at this point of time i think the latter strategy i think divesting from the u. S. And moving your Assets Abroad particularly when theyre stating that some of these people may be designated at some point in the future under sanctions program is probably the right way to go i dont think theres a lot of political will in washington right now to revise the law or request an amended report be put out. By treasury so i think the latter and smarter strategy is actually to divest and i would also suggest that these parties who have been identified get in front of the Treasury Department and provide evidence to them as to why they are not they should not be considered as central sanctions designations now its interesting you say that because regardless of how tense the relationship between our two countries has been i think up until recently there was a strong belief at least here in russia dead in the United States businessmen regardless of their country of origin are protected by the rule of law from these kind of political arbitrary and this. I wonder if you can still confidently say that it is the case that the american justice can protect companies that are connected to russia russia as a country rather than the kremlin. Can still be protected from politically driven whether it is prosecution of even discrimination yes so theres an old saying here that in the. Erica the justice is blind and i think thats true and it cuts both ways though it can both be a good thing in certain circumstances it could be counterproductive in this idea that you will turn a blind eye and protect business interests in the face of the rule along is inaccurate and if you need to ask anybody about that you can ask the number of iranian iranian americans that have been prosecuted under various sanctions statutes for the last ten to fifteen years about protecting business interests so again i go back to this point justice is blind and it cuts both ways and were seeing it play out here well its its an interesting turn around especially again when the United States is concerned because i think it is preceded internationally as politically a low risk country its clearly no longer the case as you point out for the russians but i wonder if arbitrariness at this point is contained only to russia of what about the other wealthy individuals from other countries do you think they should take notice of that yeah i think they should and i mean there was a report just yesterday from reuters about france now turning to the euro to do trade with iran and i think were going to see that more and more often as people will turn away from the u. S. Financial system of the dollar because sanctions at this point are being overused and this is something that many sanctions experts including former treasury officials have stated so i think. The message is worldwide to wealthy businessmen that if you are engaged in con you bill or the u. S. Believes youre engaged in conduct you could potentially become subject to some sort of sanctions restriction or u. S. Sanctions law in the future but the question is can you fully divest from the American Economy in a way that you know you would be still conducting business in countries and it will not get in. Into the crosshairs of the american regulators is it still possible in this day and age to do business around the world and not be subjected to the american oversight possibly yes very difficult also yes. You know the fact is that most trade is done in u. S. Dollars there is u. S. Persons involved in senior and managerial positions at many multinational corporations in the us to your point yes its very difficult to completely avoid the us if youre doing International Business on a global scale but it is possible and i think there have been examples out there you know ive seen my own clients who were unable to use the u. S. System engage in an activity outside of the jurisdiction of the United States successfully to your point its very difficult now necessary the United States is believed to have a pretty strong anti discrimination and libel laws do you think daddys a promising recourse for companies or individuals who have been denied service because of their National Origin no i dont think so not in this context and this is something that weve researched often weve represented many people on the list and once weve been able to take them off the sanctions list theyve always wanted to bring suits against the United States for the damage that was caused as a result of the designation but you have the u. S. Government acting pursuant to legislation and if theyre not doing anything outside of their authority and outside the color of law then youre no court is going to find the u. S. Government to be liable for that activity i think the smarter route here particularly for those people on the report is to seek a determination from u. S. Courts that their placement on the report and in fact the report itself may have violated the due process mandates of the administrative procedure act which is which is a law that governs a federal Agency Action. But as mr for areas you pointed out putting an individual or a company on on death least does not necessarily compel anyone to take actions against them if lets say a Financial Institution denies the service to some russian individual can he proceeded discrimination case simply because he as a russian was discriminated. For no reason rather than being a russian right so well there is that what you said at the end is the material term if thats the cause is because he was a russian the action was taken then certainly you may have a case for discrimination but the banks response in that case would be were not doing this because hes a russian were doing this because he was identified on a report of people that have close ties to the russian government and also or is a potential future sanctions designee so i think the discrimination case in this regard would fail well mr ferriter we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments statement. From the. Sisters will bundle of joy he would have the chills of civilizing in the woods mother just couldnt leave with one couple to tell them but usually cuba is just two. Every year china put a lot of effort into making up for this cruel mistake of nature. It was two hundred. Chinas paying the breeding has become something of a production. 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Actually get into a fight with a neighbor or or with other powers in the world. Across europe municipalities are taking their water supply back from private companies to meet with simple song alone even some company else will they invite private companies to take over the utilities anybody tell us that. This is. A more use than bill bill if bill brought up locals are ready to stand up for the basic human right of access to water its about water but its also over much more than water its about the hurt and the redistribution of. This. Date downwards weve won or lost. Welcome back to worlds apart with eric feder idea of washington based defense attorney specializing in sanctions and mr ferrari at the heart of this leads least as well as the katsa law lidy allegations of precious meddling in into the american elections and these allegations may have become accepted as a fact. Broader american political and media discourse but at this point at least they havent been proven in the court of law and they havent been substantiated by any findings so for example the miller investigation and i wonder why there within the american Legal Framework it is even necessary to to prove charge before a meeting out punishment to selected individuals right well you have the court of law and then you have the court of Public Opinion answer your point i do think that the court of Public Opinion has made up its mind im a lawyer and i respect the court of law and what the opinion is of the courts of law and the juries that are impaneled in this country. So i think there are. As far as the publics concern there something was afoot and something did occur but youre right nothing has been proven yet and the point as to whether or not its unfair to take action in respect of this i think its important to keep in mind that sanctions are often viewed as a tool of Strategic Communication and that the evidentiary standards are very low for bringing the sanctions designation and sanctions are often utilized when there are there is not sufficient evidence to bring a criminal prosecution so all of that leads. To the situation now well they say essentially what youre saying is that no it does not have to be proven in the court of florida before those sanctions are introduced and against any particular individual. Now we just had a very Interesting Development in the year of the court of arbitration for sports overturning the suspension of russian athletes for doping essentially saying that the burden of proof has not been that triggering an avalanche of allegations against the court and i think this is not that interesting case when you have a big gap between the court of Public Opinion and the actual court and the difference of it in standards for one another how big is the challenge do you think for the judges to deal with such politically charged cases its very its very difficult for judges to deal with this particular i myself have brought numerous lawsuits against treasury for sanctions those nations and when youre in this area of law and youre dealing with federal Agency Action the courts what theyve refer to themselves as extreme deference to the decisions of the federal agencies involved in the designation process so its very much an uphill battle and most of these cases are resolved through dialogue and communication with the federal agencies themselves rather than through a litigation type process i think it also raises a very interesting question that goes to the very fundamentals of the rule of law whether the adversary or the party that you are absolutely sure is guilty deserves the same legal procedure the same burden of proof the same Legal Standards as others your a practicing lawyer as you said you often bring cases or argue cases contrary to the American Government position do you encounter that kind of argument that kind of attitude in. Opponents that a Certain Party of the party that to be do not like doesnt just deserve the same Legal Standard that is. Suggested by the law absolutely so two points on that the first point is that the u. S. Constitution doesnt protect foreign national. As a broad who are targeted by certain u. S. Actions and then the second point there is that the us doesnt view sanctions as an action against the targeted party but rather as a policeman of restrictions on u. S. Persons who may transact with that party so they dont view it as weve determined this person to be guilty or innocent of a crime they view it as we believe or we have a reason to believe this person is engaged in certain activity and therefore we are going to prevent our citizens in our businesses and our permanent legal residents from engaging in transactions with them now there is one interesting pattern that i think emerged in the court of arbitration for sport thrilling and may manifest itself in the american courts as well that both the doping allegations and the actual interference allegations made against the country but the courts have to deal with individual cases as far as you know does damn merican law allow any possibility of punishing an individual as a proxy for his or her country of origin no not for their country of origin as stated that way i dont think thats right theyre certainly built within the various sanctions regimes subsections of certain authorities which state that if the Party Material assists a designated party then they themselves can be subject to those particular sanctions prohibitions but its never defined simply by the fact that someone is russian the only parallel you may be able to draw is with the north korea and the Cuban Sanctions Program where the authority itself blocks anyone who is a person of those countries and theyre automatically blocked because of the nature of the authorities deployed now mr ferrari going back to the or in the fifth cations of the kremlin list i know that you believe that those named in the least may face jail. Lazy in Financial Transactions has International Banks subjected them to more scrutiny and i think many people in russia would actually welcome that because the illicit capital outflow from this country still significant according to Russias Central Bank it was around thirty one billion dollars last year could that possibly be a Silver Lining in this whole controversy that the western Financial Institutions will no longer turn a blind eye to money being siphoned off from this country right so thats an interesting point and many of my clients often say once theyve been put on the list theyd be happy to have everyone look through their books and through their businesses and see that nothing alyssa is ongoing so thats an interesting point that you raise and one that i hear myself quite often now i know that there are a lot of russians both individuals and companies who are now trying to low be in washington and trying to secure their holdings in the United States but i wonder if there is any little being going on on the part of western Financial Institutions because as i said they they they mount of money going out of russia into whether it is london or new york is is pretty substantial so i assume that business would also be damaged if russian money are no longer flowing in i havent heard of her the opposite which is that they were putting these persons on the. Exposed persons lists and hence do diligence ive been in touch with a number of bankers this week on a variety of matters and of course this was the scuffs on all those calls and i hadnt heard that but i suppose it would be a possibility given the financial interest of the banks now i heard you say before that you believe that economic sanctions are an indispensable tool in the us Foreign Policy kid that they have proven their value time and time again and i think that would run counter to the conventional popular opinion here in russia because none of the countries that have been subjected to you can sanctions have actually changed their policy. If anything they grew more defined that applies to cuba that applies to north korea that applies to run and i