Beijing china and in forest hills we crossed to Michael Hudson he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri kansas city as well as author of forgive them their debts a Financial Times 2018 book of the year all right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate heather let me go to you 1st in washington it seems to me i mean you know were all covering this socalled trade war you know beat by beat pulse by pulse but you know you and the larger screen scheme of things its really about who is going to dominate this century economically and technologically the United States is fighting very hard to preserve the status quo its position in the world and we can focus in on the tech sector and this is really what its more about its who is going to dominate and thats why its taking so hard to get an agreement and its and thats why its so politically important more so for trump because hes up for reelection but of course the chinese leadership has. It come through for the Chinese People because well theyve been on a pretty good roll for the last 30 years they want to keep it going go ahead heather that is that is very true i think its important to state where we are in the tariff negotiations the u. S. Has imposed thus far 25 percent on 200000000000. 00 worth of goods coming from china and that was recently increased from only 10 percent now china has also retaliated anywhere between 5 and 20 percent tariff on 110000000000. 00 worth of u. S. Goods i think its also important to remember that we buy we meaning the us a lot more goods from china than they do for my so at some point in time china will run out of terrorists to retaliate on and i and so they will may resort to other measures of retaliation outside of tariffs same question to you michael in forest hills here i mean it really is about a paradigm shift one power not wanting that shift to occur and another one feels that its finally reached its place on the global stage i mean the this is these are piers they are genuinely piers now economically but its something the u. S. Has never had to confront go ahead michael well that doesnt stop the United States from asking for economic surrender it wants china russia and other countries all could be dependent on United StatesInformation Technology arms dollar and finance only oil in their culture so that these countries do something america doesnt like it can impose sanctions on them that will hold whole apart all of the connections of their economy no other economy is going to go along with this and china any other economy is going to say wed better be independent from any ability of the United States to suddenly disrupt their activity by imposing sanctions so were going to have our own arrangements for food for oil. Mation technology so the but what was doing is. China together with other countries to make turn to ways to in effect from prison posing sanctions on the United States well its very interesting because john i mean what i want hang on let me go to john and then we could make it a free for all john but you know what you know with the kind of relationship that is occurring during the socalled trade war here i mean doesnt this give initiative to for the chinese to actually innovate even more if theyre going to be cut off from these technologies and these products and these consumers then they can do it on their own and and in some ways that seems like a kind of a wise move because he does have to swallow the bitter pill now and youll be much better later so i mean i again i mean kind of echoing what michael is saying right here is that in a sense here by targeting specific companies theyre actually spurring innovation in china itself go ahead john. Well i guess youre talking about targeting while this is actually very true so far in china in the u. S. Being you know working where the well in terms of economic integration is you know postrace going on is also very large operation here in china representing Something Like 402500 1000000000 dollars of interest here so the success of global value chain that meaning global very chim production across the pacific has been credible to successful but so far you know the chinese medicine learned that this is in danger now why always a prime example of that this motto is you know you cant have blind faith is the motto and this actually drives copper china further into self innovation self indigenous being selfreliant so i think this is a. Very dangerous sign coming out that the global very choose stories in is in shambles right now and also want to get a point. To where theres just said its chu that the United States maintains a very large trade deficit with china some point china is going to roll out goes to put ontario some but porn is there 40 percent of the chinese exports to nanas things actually so she was Corporate America operating here in china and that means that a lot of these types of hitting products that actually imported about American Companies into u. S. And altimeter tariffs all paid by by American Consumers you know the studies out there are pointing out that the average burden for American Family is going to be somewhere between 700 dollars to 1000 dollars so sooner or later people going to realize this you know the prices at walmart at amazon dot com is going up and the average american working families up footing the bill for this so its actually not in the americas interest to you know just protests and this is not just one way street i mean the exports coming from china to the u. S. They are all a socialist. The benefits of quitting to copper america and you know the goods. Being born American Families and theyre paying for this ok how do you want to jump in there go ahead a lots been said a lot yeah i mean i have yeah i guess ill be the one person to push back but im on with 2 professors and i and i am not a professor so i will be cautious all raise my hand and i think the administration in the us i know that this also hurts us it walmart has says said prices are going to have to go up and it also hurts china perhaps even more than the us and as a free market capitalist i mean i dont necessarily like the idea of tariffs or want to impose tariffs but i do understand the us the administration u. S. Trade teams position that china has been stealing our intellectual property for many years and has forced joint ventures if you want to do business with china in beijing where you are john i think you have to transfer your you form a joint venture and you transfer all of your trade secrets to them and then they can use that data or they are using that had that data to trade if its a joint or theyre just a company but if its a joint venture how to market it you know if its a joint venture how is that theft well its thats good because china is not supposed to be able to give our trade secrets to their Domestic Companies thus putting our u. S. Domestic manufacturers at a disadvantage and thats what were targeting that well we want to have business which im sure youll do without doing to live by your means to be fair and you know but they still do the joint ventures why because their profits to be made i mean weve known this for a very long time michael you were disagreeing jump in technology is universal there is no such thing as a trade secret thats like saying that china shouldnt grow its own mood because we grow up grow our food. When theyre talking about trade secrets youre talking about monopoly pricing in the United States once they have other countries china and others dependent on us. Rights and monopolies just like the farmer. Well companies that charge an enormous rate is this military secret when when a company violates. The norm in us now which is a monopoly every other country has the right to produce it if some other country tries to exploit them by selling it in exploitative rent robbing. Us ok well john i know you are going what is it like knowledge of good job good job what is the technology if that in a so called the theft of the Natural Properties were 1st of all to make the point that no country can make any progress significant progress on the technology of phones by just stating and and Technology Transfer coersion themselves corporate china has to be innovative and they have been climbing the Technology Lead us no doubt about it and also im not going to defend it or snow you know its an actual property theft in china thats when it happens but the point is that i think the United States was talking about a stay sponsored theft of intellectual property so i mean as a distinction here im not sure thats true i mean if you look at the us to. Second through all reports he talks about theft of intellectual Property Rights he doesnt distinguish between units individual companies or government sponsored a theft i think is a very important distinction here i dont think theres a very solid evidence to support the idea that the Chinese Government is engaging in a state sponsored theft systematic comprehensive theft of copper americas intellectual properties i dont think thats true there was a spot to enforce Technology Transfer again i want to make this again i mean theyre finished again after we have to make a distinction between the government and individual companies when individual company tossed American Companies about for me and joint venture in china off course the chinese side was that look you know what can you offer on the table is there any Technology Transfer you can you can offer us in exchange for something we are on the table and if you call that a force Technology Transfer im not sure thats really force them. This is a well thats thats thats one go john thats why you go shooting here and thats why i said these companies willingly go into these joint ventures here. Finish out the 1st block of the program to groups like those 2 against one maybe 3 against one go ahead 40 seconds have the republic go to break again fly im sorry i just think again no no no problem this is fine its not my position its the President Trump in the u. S. T. R. S. Position and not just a republican or democratic issue when there has been democratically support in the us from from the past president obama for example has filed 16 cases what the World Trade Organization about chinese the chinese stealing our intellectual property as well as dumping goods like aluminum and steel on u. S. Soil in those most of those i think have been resolved but Bernie Sanders also saying that they have destroyed millions of u. S. American jobs and bill clinton and recently Chuck Schumer there in d. C. Say. The head of the president on china has a right to not just a robot like im going to go over the United States. Hang on john but the chinese didnt steal any jobs it was american corporations that did it it wasnt china ok or im going to just ignore that they are going to were going to short were going to show our grain and after that short break well continue our discussion on trying to trade more say with 30. We are in a strange situation where everybody is making a lot of noise about military action against iran but nobody in the part of that alliance actually wants to do it. Theres no desire for it so do you hope that iran makes a mistake and somehow. And then does it some kind of confrontation and then the iranians will be forced to come to the table you know begging for some kind of solution on american terms but you know i think that is dreaming thats a pipe dream. You know to get 2017 the german newspaper developed published an article claiming that the European Union the last 30000000000 euros as a result of its very anti russian sanctions. Particularly affected Eastern Europe many polish vamos went broke and he committed suicide. Going to his own camp to come to as i was of on a good on one of the top level put on the political front on the. On the young victim to have to find out why the on the whole saga going against the dolls and on to other kind of unknown doesnt in lets say in the in the pulling. Song the smith. On does dance with all the folks and thats what you call. Welcome back to cross talk where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle trying to be discussing trumps trade war. Ok let me go back to i call in forest hills look i am for the president getting a good trade deal with china whatever that deal is then we have to talk about its nuts and bolts but i do support the American National interest so im reaching out to have the right here ok im just trying to kind of peel back some of the kind of propaganda that you hear in the Mainstream Media now i mean you know michael you know him currency manipulation what was quantitative easing ok i mean there are different terms for it ok but you know i mean i always pointing at china my why you know ill be all be ill be very. Controversial here. Michael with a lot of people are just jealous of chinas enormous success i mean it is the one of the most amazing economic miracles in such a short amount of time when i was a young man you know china you when you open up like a you know an atlas and you know the f. B. I. Fact book you know like china was just not there to be the most populous country in the world that nobody ever really talked about it except for its commie there now we have to talk about it a lot and ive been to china it is a remarkable place to see now. A huge middle class but its extraordinary i think you know. People are not really well informed what china is really all about except for its the new adversary which is so boring go ahead michael well china has succeeded and gotten rich following the same policy that america followed in the 19th century they got rich it is a mixed economy and it uses the Public Sector to subsidize basic needs transportation education. Health to provide these really so that employers do not have to pay workers a high enough price so that they can afford high priced housing like americans high priced care the americans cannot acknowledge china is succeeding with a mixed economy which it call socialist but then youd have to call the American Economy socialist we have the government subsidizing it that there are the military sectors subsidizing agriculture china is doing exactly what the United States does and the United States cant understand china because it would have to acknowledge that it itself is a mixed economy and that is anathema to the Free Enterprise academics john is and i want to focus on that one question your mom about to ask john i want to ask how there in michael later is there a win win scenario as we go into this because the even though the terminology we use trade war is if someone has to win or lose i mean its its such a black and white issue the way its portrayed in the media and i find that that is very dangerous because if its a war someone has to win and of course you dont want to lose and it could spread into other areas geopolitics in the military and which of course none of us want that to go happen so you know is a win win possible here because of the rhetoric coming out of the American Media and the administration they make it sound like you know this is a an existential threat maybe it will be one day but certainly not now go ahead john. Well the chinese come has been very careful of using this war the war i mean the trade war up until the collapse of the 11th ronny goetia which is which was set up on a month ago when vice premier little hook came to washington d. C. On and the negotiation for a part up to the up to that point the chinese come in the press in china most of them you know National Media is actually controlled by the government we have never used toward. War to categorize whats going on between states and china we always were talking about your trade friction but now ive seen official mention of this world war so i think the Chinese Governments position is change it a bit realizing that you know they cant just keep make concessions or concessions to some point they have the desire is aligned they have to join us and then in we no more anymore in. Recently just a few days ago a ministry of commerce issued a white paper lay out 3 conditions very clearly a force that if were going to reach a deal or have to go back to you know before july last year when the tassel impose order additional have to be gone thats the 1st condition the 2nd issues that. Approaches his commitment china scum and hasnt is going to make doing this train a go she has to be reasonable and and the moderates you know words theres a reach between present she and present championing the summit meeting argentina in november that china is committed to buy a soda months and seems the. The the trade deficit some u. S. Keeps worsening since last november the american side has made additional amount of demand that we have to increase imports from u. S. Chinese come and say this has to be more the 3rd thing is that the force the macas and talking about in that 150. 00 page document that is the document the goetia between vice premier. Asked to eliminate all those things regarding any legislative timetable on the chinese spot chinas government thinks thats