Stay with us now for crosstalk asking whether the u. S. And china can find a way out of better trade for. A low and welcome across talk were all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle after a breakdown in negotiations president and she may soon again meet to hash out a trade deal the stakes couldnt be higher both sides would need to proceed to wind failure could witness the Global Economy divided into rival blocks and a dual internet world. Trade war im joined by my guest. The zoom in washington she is a financial analyst as well as Vice President of vision for Fund Distributors also in washington we have john gong he is a professor at the university of International Business and economics located in beijing china and in forest hills we crossed to Michael Hudson he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri kansas city as well as author of forgive them their debts a Financial Times 2800 book of the year all right crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate heather let me go to you 1st in washington it seems to me i mean you know were all covering this socalled trade war you know beat by beat pulse by pulse but you know in the larger screen scheme of things its really about who is going to dominate this century economically and technologically the United States is fighting very hard to preserve the status quo its position in the world and we can focus in on the tech sector and this is really what its more about its who is going to dominate and thats why its taking so hard to get an agreement and its and thats why its so politically important more so for trump because hes up for reelection but of course the chinese leadership has to come through for the Chinese People because well theyve been on a pretty good roll for the last 30 years they want to keep it going go ahead heather that is that is very true i think its important to stay where we are in the tariff negotiations the u. S. Has imposed thus far 25 percent on 200000000000. 00 worth of goods coming from china and that was recently increased from only 10 percent now china has also retaliated anywhere between 5 and 20 percent tariff on 110000000000. 00 worth of u. S. Goods i think its also important to remember that we buy we meaning the u. S. A lot more goods from china than they do from us so i have some point in time china will run out of terrorists to retaliate on and i and so they may resort to other measures of retaliation outside of tears. Same question to you michael in forest hills here i mean it really is about a paradigm shift one power not wanting that shift to occur and another one feels that its finally reached its place on the global stage i mean the this is these are peers they are genuinely peers now economically and its something the u. S. Has never had to confront go ahead michael well that doesnt stop the United States being more economic surrender it wants china and russia and other countries all could be dependent on United StatesInformation Technology arms dollar and finance. In agriculture so that if these countries do something america doesnt like it can impose sanctions on them that will hold whole apart all of the connections of their economy no other economy is going to go along with this and china and any other economy is going to say wed better be independent from any ability of the United States to suddenly disrupt their activity by imposing sanctions so were going to have our own arrangements for food for oil or Information Technology so the effect of what companies doing is to china together with other countries to make turn to ways to in effect trump is imposing sanctions on the United States well its very interesting because john i mean what i want hang on let me go to john and then we could make it a free for all john but you know what you know with the kind of relationship that is occurring during the socalled trade war here i mean doesnt this give initiative to for the chinese to actually innovate even more if theyre going to be cut off from these technologies and these products and these consumers then they can do it on their own end and in some ways it seems like a kind of a wise move because he does have to swallow the bitter pill now and youll be much better later so i mean i gan i mean kind of echoing when. Michael is saying right here is that in a sense here by targeting specific companies theyre actually spurring innovation in china itself go ahead john. Well i guess youre talking about targeting while this is actually very true so far in china in the u. S. Being you know working where well in terms of economic integration this you know postrace going on is also very large operation here in china representing Something Like 402500 1000000000 dollars of interest here so the success of global value chain that meaning global very chimp production across the pacific has been credible to successful but so far you know the chinese medicine learned that this is in danger now why always a prime example of that this motto is you know you can have blind faith is the motto and this actually drives corporate china further into self in the ovation self indigenous being selfreliant so i think this is a. Very dangerous sign coming out that the global very choose stories in is in shambles right now and also want to get a point to have as just said its chu that the United States maintains a very large trade deficit with china some point chinas going to run off goes to put on tarot some but the point is that 40 percent of the chinese exports to nanas things actually socialist Corporate America operating here in china and that means that a lot of these types of hitting products that actually imported about American Companies into u. S. And altimeter all paid by by the American Consumer you know the studies out there pointing out that the average burden for American Family is going to be somewhere between 700 dollars to 1000 dollars so sooner or later people going to realize this you know the prices at walmart at amazon dot com is going up and the average american working families up footing the bill for this so its actually not in the americas interest to you know just. And this is not just one way street i mean the axe. Whats coming from china to the us or a socialist. The benefits of quitting to Corporate America and you know the goods are being bought in American Families and theyre paying for this ok how do you want to jump in there go ahead a lots been said. Yeah i mean i have yeah i guess ill be the one person to push back but im on with 2 professors and i and i am not a professor so i will be cautious all raise my hand and i think the administration in the us i know that this also hurts us it walmart has says said prices are going to have to go up and it also hurts china perhaps even more than the us and as a free market capitalist i mean i dont necessarily like the idea of tariffs or want to impose tariffs but i do understand the us the administration us trade teams position that china has been stealing our intellectual property for many years and has forced joint ventures if you want to do business with china in beijing where you are john i think you have to transfer your you form a joint venture you transfer all of your trade secrets to them and then they can use that data or they are using that i have that data to trade if its a joint or theyre just a company but if its a joint venture how targeting you know if its a joint venture how is that theft well its thats because china is not supposed to be able to give our trade secrets to their Domestic Companies thus putting our u. S. Domestic manufacturers at a disadvantage and thats what were targeting that well if we want to have business which means youll do the doings of life youre basically fair and yeah but they still do the joint ventures why because their profits to be made i mean weve known this for a very long time michael you were disagreeing jump in technology is universal there is no such thing as a great secret thats like saying that china shouldnt grow its own mood because we grew up grew our food. When theyre talking about trade secrets youre talking about monopoly pricing the. United states once they have other countries china and others dependent on us. Rates and monopolies just like the pharmaceutical companies that charge an enormous rate is that military secret when when a company violates. The normal free trade in us now which is a monopoly every other country has the right to produce it cos if some other country tries to exploit them by selling it in exploitative rent reading over and above us ok well john i know youre going what is it like knowledge of good job good job what is the technology if that in a so called theft of intellectual properties were 1st of all to make the point that no country can make any progress significant progress on a Technology Fund by just stating and and Technology Transfer coercion themselves corporate china has to be innovating and they have been climbing the Technology Lead us no doubt about it and also im not going to defend it or snow you know its an actual property theft in china thats when it happens but the point is that i think the United States was talking about a stay sponsored theft of intellectual property so i mean as a distinction here im not sure thats true i mean if you look at the us t. R. Rubber law is a 2nd 31 report he talks about theft of intellectual Property Rights he doesnt distinguish between you know its individual companies or government sponsored a theft i think a very important distinction here i dont think theres a very solid evidence to support the idea that the Chinese Government is engaging in a state sponsored theft systematic comprehensive theft of copper americas intellectual properties i dont think thats true there was a spot to the enforced Technology Transfer again i want to make this stick again i mean theyre finished again after we have to make a distinction between the government and individual companies when individual company tossed American Companies about for me and joint venture in china off course the chinese side was that look you know what can you offer on the table. Technology transfer you can you can offer us in exchange for something on the table and if you call that a forced Technology Transfer im not sure thats really force i mean this is a well thats thats thats going on thats why dont you go issue here thats why i said these companies willingly go into these joint ventures here. Finish out the 1st block of the Program Looks Like its 2 against one maybe 3 against one go ahead 40 seconds have the report we go to break again fleischer im sorry i just think again no no no problem this is fine its not my position its the President Trump in the u. S. T. R. S. Position and not just a republican or democratic issue when there has been there are credit support in the u. S. From from the past president obama for example has filed 16 cases what the World Trade Organization about chinese the chinese stealing our intellectual property as well as dumping goods like aluminum and steel on u. S. Soil in those most of those i think have been resolved but Bernie Sanders also saying that they have destroyed millions of u. S. American jobs a bill clinton recently Chuck Schumer here in d. C. Saying playing tough heather and her time going on china has gotten not just a republican i think you know your time space colonies you lost money to hang on john but the chinese didnt steal any jobs it was american corporations that did it it wasnt china ok or im going to just ignore that they are going to were going to short were going to show our brains and after that short break well continue our discussion on trying to trade more say with our team. Hell welcome you all just normal guy called. A member of the real world will know what you know but notice when you watch him cause it. Was a march. Toward. With the. News new york city for. You to sit around us. Monday morning some. Of these which. Youll see in the local which is. What you would you would please leave theres a look at your bullshit. You look to sell shoes. That. You dont like. Welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered im peter all about reminder were discussing trumps trade war. Ok let me go back to michael in forest hills look im for the president getting a good trade deal with china or whatever that deal is then we have to talk about its nuts and bolts but i do support American National interest im reaching out to have the right here ok im just trying to kind of peel back somebody and kind of propaganda do you hear me and streaming audio now i mean. You know michael you know i am currency manipulation but what was quantitative easing ok i mean there are different terms for it ok but you know i mean i always pointing at china my why you know ill be evolving ill be very. Controversial here. Michael with a lot of people are just jealous of chinas enormous success i mean it is it is the one of the most amazing economic miracles in such a short amount of time when i was a young man you know china you when you open up like a you know an atlas and you know the f. B. I. Factbook you know like china was just not there to be the most populous country in the world that nobody ever really talked about it except for its caused me to add now we have to talk about it a lot and ive been to china it is a remarkable place to see now. A huge middle class but its extraordinary i think you know these people are not really well informed what china is really all about except for its the new adversary which is so boring go ahead michael well china has succeeded and gotten rich by following the same policy that america followed in the 19th century to get rich it has a mixed economy and it uses the Public Sector to subsidize the basic needs transportation Education Health to provide these really so that employers do not have to pay workers a high enough price so that they can afford high priced housing like americans high priced health care the americans cannot acknowledge china is succeeding with a mixed economy which is coal socialist but then youd have to call the American Economy socialist we have the government subsidizing the ip sec there are military sectors subsidizing agriculture china is doing exactly what the United States does and the United States cant understand china because it would have to acknowledge that it itself is a mixed economy and that is anathema to the Free Enterprise academic. You know john its and i want to focus on the one question to ask john i want to ask how there in michael later is there a win win scenario as we go into this because the even the terminology we use trade war is that someone has to win or lose i mean its its such a black and white issue the way its portrayed in the media and i find that that is very dangerous because if its a war someone has to win and of course you dont want to lose and it could spread into other areas geopolitics in the military and which of course none of us want that to go happen so you know is a win win possible here because of the rhetoric coming out of the American Media and the administration they make it sound like you know this is a an existential threat maybe it will be one day but certainly not now go ahead john. Well the chinese come has been very careful of using this word war i mean the trade war up until the collapse of 11th around the goetia which is which was about a month ago when vice premier little hook came to washington d. C. And the negotiation busy for appox up to up to that point that chinas going in the press and china most of them you know National Media is actually controlled by the government we have never used a war war to categorize whats going on between states and china we always were talking about you know trade friction but now ive seen the official mention of this world war so i think the Chinese Governments position has changed at a bit realizing that you know they cant just keep make concessions concessions some point they have that theres a theres a law and they have to join us and we know more any more in. Recently just a few days ago a ministry of commerce issued a white paper lay out 3 conditions very clearly a force that if were going to reach a deal or have to go back to you know before last year when the tassel impose order to be gone thats the 1st condition the 2nd condition is that the. Approaches his commitment chinas government has is going to make doing this train a go she has to be reasonable. And the moderate you know words these are women reached between present she and present trump during the summit meeting argentina in november that china is committed to buy a soda months and seems the. Trade deficit some u. S. Keeps worsening since since last november the american side has made additional amount of demand that we have to increase imports from u. S. Chinese come and say this has to be more the 3rd thing is that the force the macas of the talking about in that 150 page document tha