Tehran is a lot like the United States clash with north korea 2 years ago except for one crucial difference there is no regional ally capable or even the willing to restraint biggest its worst time to be the barbs traded and sanctions imposed what could stop the United States from sliding into yet another middle eastern war to discuss that im now joined by david morris and author of dangerous delusion why the west is wrong about Nuclear Iran Mr marson good to talk to you thank you very much for your time. Now back in 2013 you published a book with be there all boring making a rational argument against a war with iran and i think many of the points you made back then are still valid but do you think this whole debate on iran especially in the United States is still within the reaal most rationality do rational arguments still matter the basic facts of disappeared really from public view. The United States spent 10 years from 2003 to 22013. 00 attempting to coerce around into giving up the radium and rich rooms. Even though that was around. The p. T. Which allows enrichment and other activities as long as it was. For. Civil and not motion purposes the fields. Despite their best efforts they got sanctions imposed by the Un Security Council they imposed sanctions themselves obama did and when most of 2012 i think. Nevertheless they. Continued with their Enrichment Program as they were entitled to do and then they talked with the situation in which they have about 20000. 00 centrifuges which about half were actually functioning. Time of course the there are the activity then your character of the. Iranians was was on her the supervision of the. On an all time they fund absolutely no diversion of your material. For nuclear purposes well its one so far that a few days ago the United States and iran seemed to be on the brink of a war but if we are to believe media reports donald trump called off a strike on the run based in part on consultations with his favorite t. V. Anchor im sure that both of us are relieved that the strike didnt happen but this mode of Decision Making about the matters of war and peace doesnt it send chills down your spine. Yes i mean unfortunately theres one arcturian on this is just is not rush no. Its the United States i mean iran is comparatively rational about all these things when you can predict as to whats going to happen not least because. A tone trumps chief advisor and this is one john bolton who. Is for everybody in favor of taking military action against iran and indeed over regime change in iran he he wrote an op ed in the annals of trying 2015 i think it was suggesting that the United States should bomb around. Nuclear Weapons Program. He undoubtedly was to the fore an advisor in trying to take military action a few days ago by a trim tree bark. Im certain sure there are going to be over instances in which he will get military action and maybe next time trump will not drop by i mean its overly irrational because. There is no iran hasnt got a Nuclear Weapons program. Is never how the Nuclear Weapons program the j c p a way has restricted the imbalance of interest uranium it can. Keep on its own soil it come it. Couldnt possibly make a Nuclear Weapon even if it thought so done through the years the us and times rooms said look we can always tell if it moves away from the current level of enrichment which is largely required for Nuclear Power towards higher levels of richmond that are needed for for. A bomb you just mentioned a moment ago that the president. Was almost proud for having called off a military strike and having stood up to john bolton but at the same time he also doubled down on verbal assaults and personal sanctions against the Supreme Leader off or on. I agree with you its very difficult to understand the transactions but do you take that as a now for this an american effort to diffuse or on the contrary to your ratchet up the pressure insofar as they have promised to put pressure on iran that what they really expect to gain from go to the nose i mean. To meet them. Around what was about a year ago in which there were 12 points in which which were impossible to believe that iran would ever. Giving up their Nuclear Program altogether and included. Apparently withdrawing from syria and stopping giving aid and assistance to has will i mean none of thats going to happen so what their end game is god only knows the world should be saying with one voice and particularly europe should be say with one voice is this crisis is made in washington this crisis or is arisen from the fact that the United States. Is violating a an International Nuclear deal sanctioned by the security council. This should be said over and over again iran is innocent in this matter and was still sticking to the britain sent an envoy to run the other day lets assume bloody capital to go to you mean it should go to washington because thats where its going to be stopped it will be stopped but they do you really think that if the europeans are have enough capacity enough geopolitical leverage to stop the americans from doing anything i mean though with all due seriousness is there any power in the world that can make the United States at this point of time seek by its own dill. Very difficult. The strongest power in the world and its very difficult to see how they can be stopped but if you just acquiesce and europe is mostly acquiescing in in this breach it hasnt gone very much for around to help the situation and which is being strangled economically if you sit quiet surely nothings going to renew any positive thing to write about the old day was our foreign minister who. Was standing there leadership of the conservative party actually said in the house of commons i think yesterday it would be very very unlikely he couldnt it was a situation in which britain would join in military action against around the law of the United States so suppose you should be thankful for something you mentioned some of the things that could be done but what im mostly concerned is the this theater of affairs in the middle east because. While chance seems to be proud of not. Rushing into war the overall security situation is very tenuous we still dont know what and who did the old those attacks on the oil tankers those attacks may repeat again they may be Something Else involving god forbid some american casualties that would require a prompt american reaction i mean i understand that i sound like a conspiracy theorist but is it possible to explain whats going on in that region without suspecting some foul play. Its its very difficult very difficult to say i mean and im going to sort of russia has. Suggested that perhaps ron was right in saying that the drone was inside. Her space when theres been a short time but i wouldnt like to guess as to whos responsible for her. Actions against shipping the go. These days whenever things happen he ask yourself over time who gains from what even may look as if they have the answer is obvious i mean we just had a serious an in. The socalled chemical weapons until last year which you know stance on britain and france bomb syria turns out as it looks very very like as if that was in fact a staged event. I dont know who was responsible really eagle eye patches of they had the freshman one of the Russian Security chiefs and he went even further to suggest that all the evidence that the americans have so far presented as as if they were the evidence of the rainy and culpability were based on poor intelligence and it really looks like there is something going on of it the with the Intelligence Data tromp is all from the cues of not trusting the american intelligence do you think he actually has a reason of being at least suspect of what hes given and asked to make his decisions on well he would have a right to be because john bolton is famous for when he was part of the bush administration. For. Written and intelligence support cuba. Actually wanted to of his way to say that of course. Is his is quite willing to lie. If the need arises so who would you believe some say who. Seems to be content were living to live with that sort of situation to some extent i think weve seen this story before with north korea the escalation of tensions there ratcheting up of sanctions followed by summits and claims of mitchell affection but i think there is one key difference and that is that a role that is played by the american ally in the region south korea was a little leading be the outreach to you on north korea but he in this particular case israel seems to be very very belligerent do you think there is any connection between this geopolitical situation surrounding the golf of amman and perhaps an israeli domestic situation israel has this right behind its been trying for about 20 years to get america to talk around but by essentially its either inventing or things are generating well to iran is doing and then your for you and i. Its it would be absolutely delighted if it could persuade the u. S. At least to attack your sisters or some to sort of. Whether israel is supplying information which is necessary to lessen the truth i couldnt really say ok well mr marson we have to take a short break now but we will be back in just a few moments. Its hard to take something from somebody if you know have something replace. The parts of this interview to power to use the market hoping that they take. Your door. Area. So how can i tell you stop selling drugs if well hire someone to put the money in a box. They just mean the way in life its almost been basically a color speech for us do you guys know what secret me security positions ive been in that. Day were jacked me again. You see people get all their cars and ill see you coming in the harness seems like theyll hurry up and run into the house like they dont want to they dont want to talk see her get your mail or anything like that. I just want to go. And do this. Just try read a. Good chance give me. My 7 years doing drugs my nephews was still in drugs my system just with doing drugs it was like an epidemic of drug abuse americas public enemy number one in the United States is drug abuse he started going after the users in the prison population sewer we started treating sick people people who are addicted to these drugs like criminals while i was on the hill i increasingly became convinced that the war on drugs was a mistake there are countless numbers of people who are in prison for inconceivable warning sentence in this for minor minor offenders in the drug trade its a lot watching your children grow up and miss you in waves and say by daddy as youre walking out of a business its just it doesnt get easier. Welcome back to worlds apart but David Morrison and author of a dangerous delusion why the west is wrong about Nuclear Iran Mr morrison one of the reasons why these townships have been so for attractive is because its not entirely clear what the disagreement is really about is it about iran suppose it intention to build a nuclear bomb or is it perhaps. Americas and israels desire to see a different government in tact what is it as far as youre concerned i think theres little doubt that its its about. Making sure are trying to make sure thats iraqs power and in the middle east is at least as restrained if not diminished. In the case of. Some people and. They would very much like to see a change or regime wish and hope that they would get some regime that was. Less willing and able to stand up against people who attack and right side of the over the one thing ive been convinced of for many years is that nuclear in your business is just a pretext i mean the best evidence of that ive come across for that is when in i think it was november 2007. The u. S. Intelligence services produced a National Intelligence estimate on this issue. Stated that as far as they were concerned. Didnt have a Nuclear Weapons program. George bush was angry about the he was angry but he said in his book that he was angry because this meant that he could no longer. Make it more difficult for him to maintain the diplomatic pressure on iran and theres no way he could attack around militarily and circumstances in which. Didnt and your Weapons Program so obviously the whole bloody business about the Weapons Program was just a pretense it was just a stick to beat around with and to use for the purpose of working on people against iran. Unfortunately the u. S. Intelligence services broke a stick well its interesting that you keep referring to irans possible mean you cant program because just the other day john bolton was on record saying that there was quote no evidence that iran made a strategic decision to renounce Nuclear Weapons so he takes it for granted that iran has actually accepted Nuclear Weapons as part of its policy of each im sure where they agree with me never it never happened around never has a Nuclear Weapons program in any meaningful sense iran has never has never find any Nuclear Material being diverted from the purposes. That is the big fact. All the time this is richmond has been going on. Its been done. Supervision its still being done on a supervision when the j. C. Limits are exhausted in whatever many years time 10 years 20 years in some instances then you know irans Nuclear Program will still be on during the. Servatius of the day and they have known all along. What around us. Doing to what level your enemy has been reached now in your book you actually go to some of the origins of how it all began failing to disclose its have a what are your any and facility in natanz which the United States and israel eagerly to you as proof of its bomb building intentions but i draw it from your book that iran that that point of time didnt even have to disclose that facility in the 1st place how come. They were told where the. Uranium enrichment facility was sure they were in the process of building. On which the released evidence of evidence on data provided by israel the. Point in time the agreement they had with the. I meant that they didnt. Disclose. Their plans to construct facilities. I think it was 6 months prior to them putting your rhenium Nuclear Material into it so they were in the. Sand afterwards and there were reports they werent breaking any rules not regard and they certainly wont bring any rules about their every water plant because every water is not a Nuclear Material and iran was still. Eager to pursue some trust Building Measures to quote unquote restore the international communitys trust in its Nuclear Program but many of the iranian officials i interviewed kind of suspected that this trust Building Measures were just the cover for a total of revoking permanent revoking irans right to enrich uranium granted to it on did the nonproliferation treaty it seems like you actually agree with the ranee an argument here that all this Negotiation International negotiate. It was not about building trials but actually about a permanent ban on Irans NuclearResearch Industry the situation was negotiated and really went wrong nothing from above 2003 to 2 sources and 5 with. European ones. Including the u. K. And various points i ran suspended. Various nuclear activity. Temporarily at the request of the europeans but. As you said just eventually when the europeans come up with their plan. For the future of the Nuclear Industry in and around it for iran to enrich uranium for. Irans rights under the years me not a lot of point in 2005. Iran and i did was mr zarif so if there is no foreign minister put forward. By about iran would attempt to gain. The confidence of the world that its activity was not for military purposes. The it was it was rejected out of hand. The europeans even though it provided for an extraordinary level of supervision by the way. Offered to turn enrich uranium into uranium robes right away. So it would be more difficult to reverse the process and further and rich the material for weapons were officers. In the european where but the europeans were doing americas will america said they were told they were told straightforwardly we dont want any. Centrifuges are operating in and around europe and now are the europeans may have been doing the american bidding at that time but clearly there are now divisions between in europe and the United States on how to receive the european still want iran to comply with the j c p o e b m eric and insist on the essentially i think permanent ban on the iranian enrichment whatsoever and just the other day donald trump promised a rainy and a booming economy if they were to abandon their rights you can reach is there any reason any rational reason for the rain ians to say yes to trumps proposal well. You come in sympathize with reunions when they say. This is all norms. The potential for a very you calling me on to he. Decided to violet the International Treaty that was astonishing 2015. And proceeded to time to strangle around economically and. But you know this this all stars for america and it really is it is time for the europeans to say with emphasize that with a low voice and