Political talk show renegade is up next. Hello and welcome to cross town where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle as u. S. Russia relations remain in a deep freeze and europe is taking a different path when it comes to russia some are calling it the new thaw also china calls out the u. K. Regarding hong kong indeed old colonial habits die hard. Cross talking some real news im joined by my guest here in moscow and he is a professor of the Higher School of economics as well as author of the decay of western civilization and the resurgence of russia and were also joined by Marcus Papadopoulos in london hes the editor of politics 1st magazine gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate let me go to markets in london an interesting phenomenon thats been going on now for a number of months or maybe since the election of donald trump but we have we just recently had blood and we are putin in italy meeting the pope in a tally and leaders of the Parliamentary Assembly of the council of europe not that im a big fan of the organization has finally given the russian delegation. Voting rights back and other. Elements that have to do with their membership germany is determined that the north stream too will be finished the gas pipeline we have president mccrone speaking very bluntly that. Europe needs a better relationship with russia i mean add this all up it is a thaw of some sorts isnt it go ahead marcus. Well pater i believe that there is a distinct possibility that once britain exits the european year then brussels and moscow could improve that relationship now why is that well firstly britain has long been perceived by many in paris and berlin as americas trojan horse brinson relays Sensitive Information from what is discussed in the European Union to washington and secondly it was the efforts it was the last being on behalf of america by britain in 2004 same that push that puts enormous enormous stress pressure on the germans and the french to put a new sanctions on russia the germans and the french and the italians have a very Good Relationship weve russia and they did not want to place those sanctions by because all written in part they relented and they placed those sanctions on russia now in 2019 britain is scheduled to leave the it will that is where there will be an opportunity for russia and the European Union to improve their relations and its certainly its in the interests of the e. U. To include fallacious that russia why because of the message amounts of trade and investment between the youre hearing in it and russia and also the you does not want to be on the front line of a potential war because of america animal so its written and if youre saying this to me earlier here i mean we were in the European Union ideals with russia though the british like to always be 1st in line to be have a hard line with this with briggs it coming right now the french the germans the italians. Maybe not necessary like countries like poland or the baltic republics but theyre beginning to realize that theres going to be a new page that has to be turned here and they want to take the initiative they want to be able to propose instead of just having to have to deal with ending american sanctions which as marcus pointed out was never really particularly popular on the continent and i think theres also a sentiment law that the sanctions will sooner or later fall apart because theres a growing opposition to it and with the british leaving us well i think there is theres an interest now to negotiate how this confrontational and rather than simply be forced to see the sanction fall apart so at least it will use it in some form of negotiations but i think a big part of this is also increasing recognition that sanctions have failed because sanctions you sanctions are costly European Union far more than it has russia very much so and what the sanctions are put in for 2 reasons the 1st will be if you want to change the policy behavior of the other side but in this instance what so what tends to be neglected is that the west was active just revisionist power and russia has been the status quo that is it reacted to the toppling in the ukraine so to tell down to the territory well that position it already had been placed like hermia it stop the west from toppling governments in syria so by being the status quo power if you want to change the behavior its going in forest for surrender so its not stand in the way of western expansionism so russia says yes follow through on this red line and just try to be patient so you cant really do much in the aspect of the 2nd purpose will be simply to punish russia to weaken its economy and it really get into irrelevance but the problem here is it would have worked 20 years ago but now china russia is looking towards china and other partners in the east so its diversifying its technology its industries and home station core the most important substitution import substitution also developing is on campus the discovery built is the diversifying its use of currencies transaction Systems Development by. So across the board economic connectivity with the west is broken so now coming to the recognition we cant simply have this escalation dominance where we want they can choose to reestablish relations with russia because a lot of this trade a lot of this Economic Activities all of it lost and its gone to the chinese so its there is time to reconsider you know what have we actually done here what have we have achieved and look for a better path so lets go back to london marcus i mean how much is this a reaction to donald trump this is coming into play here mean the we see the United States with donald trump demanding that europe relegate its Energy Security to the whims of American Energy companies which of course. Leaders like anglo merkel if she goes out the door her the people that will the woman that will follow her is going to have the same thing because germany is defending its National Interest i mean this is some kind of Tipping Point right now where the europeans are realizing they have to defend their National Interests because theyre men and their National Interest is not being defended by the United States actually just the opposite he wrote in their National Interest markets in london. Well stemming from the ukraine crisis in 6004 same little ations between the European Union and america then it became expense even under barack obama but it is absolutely true to say that since donald trump answer at the white house that tense relationship between brussels and washington has been activated all the more so and but surely a way donald trump has actually pushed the European Union at close to the European Union that really shot itself in the foot by placing their sanctions on russia in 2014 i held the view then and i still hold. That there is a use such sanctions would cool short term pain for russia and they did that it no longer it gave an opportunity to the rest it so that domestic russian law which was important but for the mess that markets in the European Union they are still suffering some wont be may have to ask ask polish apple farmers ask them what happened to them ok exactly you know they dont and. Glenn i mean i have been in a bizarre way actually been a supporter of the of the sanctions because of the reasons that marcus just told us i mean having lived here for so long and up to 2014 i heard successive governments saying we need reform we need to modernize we need to do so many things in 2014 the gauntlet was thrown down they had to do all of those things that marcus just told us this is made russia stronger and russias position position is stronger and interesting lee as marcus pointed out u. S. Policy is driving china and russia together and now as we say in this program here its pushing europe to be closer to russia this is a net fail for the United States if they wanted to take on china and russia. And the European Union all at the same time and strong said bolton we want to fight wars all simultaneously all over the world ok thats a losing proposition yeah but you know also. In 2014 when the u. S. Was able to put pressure and come in syrup to it but that was by their own words by the way to twist europes arm in order to accept sanctions on russia this was under the bomb administration which was more measured since then what is up in the World Americans are pushing their peons trying to twist their arm again to go against a trade war against the chinese theyre pushing them to target the iranians to break the treaty they also help trying to get aboard with the venezuela which hasnt really panned out to rebel so and also now of course putting sanctions against europeans themself or at least raising tire of so is so is all this new frontline so i think for their opinions to keep all keep open the front line against the russia you know in unity with United States its i think its correct to point out i think it is less appealing now than it was in the past and then in regards to the to the benefits of russia i tend to agree with that as well like its been painful for russia as well the sanctions a lot of investment the should have been making a has been made but you know the Silver Lining would be that. Russia is kind of the industrialized us became too dependent on exports of Natural Resources and simply became too convenient to import to manufacture goods develop technology instantly there was a lot of complacency is very much so and you see that russia has been forced to to reverse this to develop its own industries to modernize so. So a large extent this is been quite beneficial in that it was very hard to get the Business Community on board to do these painful reforms but now thanks to the you know the europeans and americans these reforms were essentially forced upon russia and a lot of good has been achieved now a lot of. Industries didnt have in the past are now growing so theyre going to give 30 seconds to market somebody should elf. Yes there is a waltz there is a distinct possibility of an increase in sync relations between the e. U. And russia one must never underestimate the and normal american late night shows that the euro yeah its an economic and security so the americans have the have the potential to scuttle any charge so its also an improvement in relations between the e. U. And russia well im not so but not and im not is that pessimistic here i think theres a lot of things in play here all right weve run out of time here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on some real news stay with r. T. If you will not obey the voice of the lord your god will be careful to do all these commandments any statutes which i command you this day in all these courses shall come upon you and overtake you. And then the white people list own property and therefore it must be returned to black people if they get rid of whites only problems will go away. The final to do with him. As president of the fleet the. White farmers in south africa every single day. People being tortured to death expression the elderly people in the. Mania somebody of my funky enough. Like thing and place white horse will find themselves affected by a crash and we are. Kings and queens oh its all slick and a lot of. What are you going to have for dinner. Today we dont hear anything im asking for a night made by the civil war in south africa is even if its. Good for us. Why are there any chunk be in the code of europe and to. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business im show business ill see you then. Welcome back to cross talk where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing some real news. Referring to whats going on in hong kong just refresh our memory here what was democracy like in hong kong when it was a colony of the u. K. Go ahead. Well the response of the british governments to the violent protests in hong kong is a reminder that the British Imperial mindsets did not die with the British Empire and watson invests it well we live in today 8 where britain which committed some of the worst genocides in living history such as the native american such as the irish such as the out originate and politicians and journalists today over consider both conservative and liberal like a genocide denies op lecturing china about human rights in Hong Kong Hong kong is an intake part of china but it was once a china it was once a british colony and lets just remember how the british acquired its hong kong yeah they acquired its this chinese region through the 1st opium war in which the British Empire went to war against china in order to achieve 2 objectives namely to floods the Chinese Markets weve opium and to steal chinese territories so there is no reason why and he won in china should take any lectures about human rights from british politicians and british journalists and lets just look at what those protesters in hong kong ok protest its a big issue which you say people who have committed crimes in hong kong sent to the mainland for trial but theres nothing wrong with that if someone commits a crime in jersey or in gun say then they could be sent to the british mainland for trial you know the Channel Islands are part of Britain Hong Kong is possible china what happens in hong kong is an internal chinese matter and has nothing to do with anyone well though is it it might break british politicians seem to feel differently and claim it when i find you not. Im all for peaceful protest absolutely ok and id like to point out at the protests of the yellow vests are treated much more harshly then the protesters in hong kong maybe a topic for another program here but you have these protesters breaking in to parliament violently and then they hoisted the colonial flag what is going on with that. Well its. Obvious that goes beyond what you would call peaceful protests. I guess thats where some of this apocrypha comes in you mentioned france but they also the incident they cut alone you know where they actually if people had their heads cracked open to the point brutal for wanting to vote so so in europe we have our own issues as well and all of this start of course with the extradition bill that citizens can be extradited to Mainland China but in the European Union you have similar extradition and these are you know between actual states while this happens internally with. Your within china so. There is obviously some hypocrisy there but it also goes back to the way you frame the language because when we talk about what happened in france we talk about the right of tourists when we talk about hong kong their protesters but obviously the 2nd they broke in and the storm parliament. The protester what about the flag thing thats what i dont get ok i mean they it is universally internationally recognized as a one country we have these 2 systems one country is this a call to return to colonial rule well i guess that made it more inappropriate for the british to respond because by hosting the British Colonial flag obviously thats a challenge to the return of britains colonial possession to returning it back to china so for the british for he didnt have democracy they were a colony no ok i think. Let me go back to markets here i mean this is what you know i find what we all during here i mean they there are these protesters some of them very violent are are calling for a modicum of democracy or rule of law everything that you know you and i could agree on here they want they want to look back to the colonial period will explain to me how democratic was under the british i think our viewers would like to know. Well in terms of how democratic conconi was when it was a British Imperial possession its quite simple the people in china in hong kong with dictates it to buy london yes of course the british they built an interest and economic infrastructure in hong kong they introduced the Civil Service but that was only that was only to a paid people in hong kong who was in the british was long wanted at the end of the day was always implemented at the end of the day in hong kong but hong kong is a chinese territory and it was savagely taken away by the british so in china and these politicians and journalists in britain who are coming to the eights all those violent protests this well i have a question for them how do they responds if protesters enter forcibly enter the house of commons and ransacked it i dont think they would be showing any symptoms peter better there is no difference whatsoever what happens in hong kong and i actually said peter im all in favor of peaceful protests but those protests were violent they showed no respect for chinese law they showed no respect for the parliament spilled in and also as you rightly said i thought it was very telling how those violent protests this unveil to the rest of the well hong kongs British Colonial era fleck you know clinton but this is really a function of the domestic british politi