Me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to us of the world of politics or business im show business ill see that. Hello and welcome to crossfire were all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle 70 years ago this week china started down the path of communist rule over the past few decades china has emerged or rather reemerged as a leading world power rivaling the us the communist party can rightfully claim a string of stunning successes but challenges remain whats next for chinas extraordinary revolution. Cross talking chinas revolution at 70 im joined by my guest fred tang in new york he is president of the american China Public Affairs institute in hong kong we have Andrew Wilson he is an international and independent china strategist and in knoxville we process their issue she is c. E. O. Of china Rising Capital forecast a Research Technology company all right in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate sarah let me go to you 1st in knoxville the 7 do they honor verse 3 of the. Communist china the advent of establishment of the communist state of china is a remarkable event it out of the soviet union only lasted 69. 00 and now china is at 70 and theres so much to talk about there are so many successes and there are so many challenges if youre the average person in china if there is such a thing. What are they thinking on this day go ahead sara. I think that people are generally interested in celebrating this day its certainly an exciting time its a major anniversary and i think people are generally happy with their living circumstances theyre wealthier than theyve ever been its definitely something that in 1949 people could not have imagined would be the case and i think generally theres a celebrate torrie feel like in the air ok for fred to this kind of the same question because what do they what is the communist chinese light leadership what are they most proud of 70 years on go ahead fred well i think that china in the last 70 years 3 stages the 1st is the 1st 30 years is a lot of challenges. And then we have a 10 year period they tried to open up to the west and they didnt find their work so that really is the last 30 years that they have a levy the 600000000 people are the problem tedious theyre working on the science the technology the infrastructure every way education d for the people like services. The the people are very very proud and this is the time for them to look back and see how far they have come charlie just but also looking back as make you realize where you all think thats thats whats going on in china you know andrew but its only been in the last couple of years that china is seen as a threat a growing threat a challenge to the International Order and in western media is particularly very unkind to china remarkably so theres a lot of people to talk about china they dont know much about it i have a panel that know a lot of about it and have a much more nuanced view of china the world is the world celebrating along with the chinese 70 years on go ahead andrew. Well youre going to trace back history a little right back to Tiananmen Square and of course the whole world. All the rose up against a common is china which is all the terror in suppressing this people and so on so forth but i dont read the bill and there came nixon and also Henry Kissinger and there came a period honeymoon period whereby the United States want the china on their side so as to thought otherwise all russia. And so that there came a honeymoon period in the side of china with a ship and then also for the little bit china was more into the night with theo the World Trade Organization because it was felt other by brain china in philadelphia theo tonic could produce all the all the cheap products of production that we all souls the china and then all the that. The cheap products the benefit the American Consumer goods and there also is the hope that china would be more like the west now to see more would become more liberal and then even more than a credit. But any of the so many years of this hope was it was lost i mean that the the that this this up newitz of the fact that time is not like the United States by any means and not ringback only is is is is a mockery of the saying that he shares the nike shoes anymore its lollop trying to eat americans lunch in 5 g. Technology and so on so forth and and so the fear that there is a rising power with a different regime with values at all d its with those in in in the west you know sort of the east into a rat race over china threat and then this translates into d the 160 degrees pushback against china across the aisle in. Well senator i mean it wasnt really naive because i thought it was naive is that well get them in the w t o and theyll become good jeffersonian democrats which is ridiculous here why should china change its culture for the dominant power the United States ok it worked within the its an unbelievable Success Stories on so many different fronts again there are a lot of challenges and a lot of challenges are facing them now because of their success i would say year but it was naive that they were going to become like the west why should chinese become westerners thats a question that is not often asked in washington go ahead sir. Well china is sort of the case that proves all of the other cases wrong that is that a commies that are rowing have to be democratic china went against the grain for that and i think that the west lost hope to some extent that china would change its authoritarian regime after tenements where happened in 1909 i think for the entry that westerners believe that china would open up its economy fast which it has in terms of trade but its been far less less quick in terms of financial liberalization and i think that you know thats something that a lot of westerners are disappointed and there is have seemed to come to terms with chinas status as a communist nation up until the recent administration trumpet ministration in the us. Some bad feelings also in europe due to trade differences but it wasnt until recently that the west started to call out china and view them as being somewhat in the wrong you know i mean fred it was its interesting to me that its only been in the last year or so that if you look at the Mainstream Media the for a decade it decade and a half it was china china is rising china is developing its expanding. Look at the success of the chinese but it was only when the last year and now the communist regime of china is a threat to the United States i mean theyve actually kind of changed the rhetoric here because theyre looking for well of course china is a threat to the western order because it doesnt want to play by its rules i dont see why china should you need to negotiate you need to deal with each other in good faith thats how youre going to move forward here but its our way or the highway and that doesnt go down well the country that is successful is china fred. Well i think that thats true and however it didnt start really from the Trump Administration i think globally its a nationalism and this lot of dissatisfaction with their own government you know using china as a scapegoat its one way that this administration is doing i think if youre looking in terms of the were all the or you mean the definition of democracy i think that all nations should have a role in terms of defining this right now the current way of even defining democracy is by a very few countries who were the victors of the 2nd world war but theyre not including china or russia into that discussion and that definition is set however that might not be. In the right for everybody is suitable for everybody you know when he was talking about in terms of the the other nations i do think that china is respected by a lot of countries except the few western nations i think thats very good sandra i mean if you make a comparison of the just in this century in the 21st century all of the money the western countries particularly the United States leading the way washing incenses all the trillions of dollars wasted on foreign morris but the chinese have spent all their money on infrastructure not only in their country but across the world its not exporting its model its economic model or political model its certainly not spreading democracy is it me the chinese might understand it i mean and i think thats a lot of the anx that people get from about the chinese because the chinese still and i as a criticism of my own still cannae say below the radar and there are you know theyre building factories here bridges there are all kinds of things around the world and they just keep moving on and the west everyones well wakes up in the middle of night and says oh my goodness what are they doing theyre trying to conquer the world well theyre theyre expanding world trade bringing tens of millions hundreds of millions of people out of poverty i can tell you in the part of the world that i live in the youre asian land mass Chinese Development is welcomed ok it creates prosperity go ahead andy. Well 1st of all you can look at the experience during the cold war for example i think either way both china and russia and the u. S. As are all in those days were trying to explore the kind of ideology around the world and the west saw ringback that as a con of. Communism its why the overtake them i mean its a cold more than cold now yeah the cold war yeah but then they know this no longer. There are some of the damage in the sense that. Theres a whole new set of the strike where why is it being superpower it was its so active by rising superpower or the claim it is allah and they and their special is such a superpower a rising superpower comes from a different ideological system and this one and the high ranking us a was a white house at weiss of a lady who said openly they said well this is coming from a more caucasian culture so its always a class of 0 as asians you know so and if you have that these 2 forces d tumble well with this lot it will happen before. Its going to sara last 20 seconds in this park go ahead sara real quick. Yeah i actually would contest the idea that chinas. Chinas idiology can just perpetuate itself and i think that the economy has run up against limitations in terms of like the governments intervention in the economy and so i think that china will come up to its own barriers in terms of its idiology politically that will prevent it from growing further economically ok its a very good point i want to return to that were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on chinas revolution 70 years on state with r. T. The world is driven by a dreamer shaped by one person of those. Who dares thinks. We dare to ask. In 2040 you know bloody revolution to change the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it still here i mean your list put that you would put him in the new bill is that im the leader of the former ukrainian president recalls the events of 2040 and. Those who took. Even vested over 5000000000. 00 to assist ukraine in these another goal that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. Seemed wrong one old rule. To me you get to shape out just to come out to it and engagement equals betrayal. When so many find themselves worlds apart. Just to look for common ground. The. Real. World. Right. Now grand narrative. Welcome back across the uk where all things are considered on peter little to remind you were discussing chinas revolution. Ok lets go back to syria in knoxville before we went to the break so you said some something really fascinating to me about what that what kind of barriers that china is going to face i guess in the next 70 years of its revolution expand on some of those points and some of those problems go ahead sir. Right so there are limitations to Market Forces in china and we see this in the stock market we see this all throughout the Financial Sector where there is sort of a ceiling on the level of profits that people can make simply because theres a lot of government involvement if anything goes bad the government gets involved if theres a bubble the government could intervene and in addition to that a lot of companies that are listed on the chinese stock market are affiliated with the Chinese Government and so theyre not growing as fast a lot of Academic Studies have shown that a lot of state owned begs enterprises have fewer Market Forces than private enterprises chinas private sector is still relatively small and even though its continuing to grow so i think that in the next maybe even 10 years china is going. To face of barriers to further growth simply because it needs more competent sched it needs more Market Forces it needs to be able to generate innovation without fear of potential cracked out a reprisal on some of the riskier ideas and so it could be really problematic you know if its can do with that theme fred you know the the the communist party of china in it i would argue would gleans a lot of its legitimacy because of so much success over the last few decades pulling so many people out of poverty i mean you know and as an andrew pointed out early in the program you know they just dont make a deed as shoes and t. Shirts anymore they make some really remarkable high tech things here what do you think the Chinese Government is going to do to facing that challenge because i think sarah related out really well go ahead friend i kind of disagree with sarah because i think if most of the alive today he would not recognize the harm i was part of today neither would the shelf even though he was the one who open the reform policy he would not have seen so far that the country have come so far with his policy i dont think he was imagine the success is achieved so in terms of seeing the calm in this part of the Chinese Government does not change thats wrong if we look at every 10 years they have made dramatic changes and making those changes at the same time creating stability within the society and moving ahead so i will see that there will food to be opening up. Without creating chaos without creating a bubble in the in the stock market and with the i would actually disaster as a Financial Design of the 3 ok sara jump in thats the one of the program its a point of program go ahead yeah i would i would disagree with that i mean the governments has limitations and in order to stay in power the Chinese Government has to has turned control over the economy and we see that despite market opening up the government has remained. Troll a state owned enterprises has really focused on them in the past few years in terms of our fore and its something that is innate really connected with a communist government i dont think that china will be able to get out of that and allow Market Forces to entirely prevail i think its going to remain a problem ok let me go to andrew i mean you know i dont think maybe all surprised all of you but i dont worship the markets ok because the markets do get skewed ok and i am really glad that there are controls there to a point ok to a point i think i would agree with sarah that sometimes government regulations and controls can make an economy brittle and not be able to expand in the way it should ok nonetheless andrew theres nothing that succeeds like success and so you know when i look at the last major trade agreement that the u. S. And the chinese were working on and then it suddenly collapsed because essentially United States wants to dictate the terms and conditions of reforms in some sectors of the chinese economy if were talking about china here not panama no offense to panama but i mean china is a power to be reckoned with why should the United States or any other power be dictating the internal structures of the Financial Sector. Other sectors of the economy what why should china be dictated to when it can say no go ahead and do. Well i like to follow up on the reference the nothing succeeds like success because thats exactly what the comedy spot is trying to do is kids on reinvent reinventing itself so when they come in a spot in our days its not the same as the governing body at the time of chairman mao in terms of the attitude towards life of the prize and the at the day it was the market and so on so paul and i i agree with the notion that saving enterprise is going to remain for a long long time this is part of the cult of this ideology out there faith that in in fact the state based on very Important Role in driving by the enterprise approach songful there is a we all the. The visible hand of the state is even in the well this is like the United States were thinking about the success of the invention of the internet for example with our state intervention in the in the military research i mean this may not have happened or at least what happens on voss and he will even look at now. A country so far since theyre almost there in the book state on and advise us you know some of the big biggest events banks up ill say so i think that they dont have to buy saw them on please come of this. But i think the challenges ahead i like to refer to a lot of big i mention the fact that chinas or suspected or the remarkable achievements of all this in fact if you look at the period its not 70 years because china only open up in life in something online so yes in 40 years this Company Changed but then but then. All the time its respected journalist lot like why a lot of countries Even Research in. Africa where chinas investments. You know the better this is the last time this makes