Numerous promises to the kurds but the damn merican school. Sad numerous promises to the kurds and there is who deceive them and you still formally real life its and there is who deceive them and you still formally rely for your security and for your protection from russia which leads me to your security and for your protection from russia which leads me to my next question i know that before joining the think tank way my next question i know that before joining the think tank where you work right now you had a long career in the German Military you were dealing with the issues of your work right now you had a long career in the German Military you were dealing with the issues of security in europe i know you have very concerned about that state of security you keurig and europe i know you have very concerned about that state of security you call. All for a culprit if approach why do you think that call part of an inclusive approach call for a culprit if approach why do you think that call part of an inclusive approach that you advocate its a vociferously has failed to materialize because i would argue that is that you advocate its a vociferously has failed to materialize because i would argue that one of the reasons why russia and turkey were able to reach that deal is because they both fell as i said one of the reasons why russia and turkey were able to reach that deal is because they both felt isolated they both felt kind of the sikh man of europe did to quote the phrase eat it they both felt kind of the sikh man of europe do you to quote the phrase when we speak about European Security we have to distinguish that european lands when we speak about European Security we have to distinguish that european landscape from the middle east landscape that is different when youre come from the nato post and the middle east landscape that is different when youre come from a nato post picked if you would say there is a commitment its called alter fifes it will shrink treaty to a defended fact if you would say there is a commitment its called alter 5 treaty to defend it as a and to come to hope so when we speak about europe and to speak about. And to come to hope so when we speak about europe and to speak about the Baltic States or whatever flank states then theres article 5 would apply the Baltic States or whatever flank states then this article 5 would apply so here europe is fully on board there is no question about it and this is a different though here europe is fully on board there is no question about it and this is a different this is a difference to the situation in the middle east where you always had a situation that was all this a difference to the situation in the middle east where you always had a situation that was outside really outside the nato area and outside nato commitments but. Really outside the nato area and outside nato commitments but coalitions over. Rilling reform some states participated others did not so coming back to their homes over the billing reform some states participate it others did not so coming back to the. Security it into europe europe. And did it deteriorated it was due to. An ocean of. His cousin documents friends since treaties the taz and i would say commence since the time i would say. Before 2005 when new issue of 20042005 when new issue. Of contention came up between nato and not all a lot. Of contention came up between nato and not all our allies but some allies but it was 2014 when we started again knows what some allies but it was 2014 when we started again nato started again to think about common defense commitments because the body tostada it again to think about common defense commitments because the Baltic States had the impression that this in areas that developed. On their benteke states had the impression that this in areas that were developed. On the basis of the russian intervention in iraq could at least be repeated as it is of the russian intervention in iraq could at least be repeated i am theyre going to ask you about that but they let me. Have a very sharp eye and theyre going to ask you about that but let me. Have a very serious question here you talk about the security of europe within the native framework but great question here you talk about the security of europe within the native framework but the challenges are not limited to the native framework and not limited to russia i mean you can challenges are not limited to the native framework and not limited to russia i mean you could. To that are what do you have that been what happened in libya and what has syria up and present. Danger to the day your injury to the European Security. That. You know what i would add what are. Being ascribed between iraq and its brahms to the next to come state of the you think you can get the status of develop jerry theory that this is a limited to limited very outdated view on the European Security of looking i did only through the need a framework and how it deals with russia very outdated view on the European Security also looking i did only through the need a framework and how it deals with russia and the missing a whole lot of challenges that are out there and that are threatening the lives of your people missing a whole lot of challenges that are out there and that are threatening the lives of your people. I dont think i missed that. Different. I dont think i missed. A different address in the world and then we have to cope with them miss him oh tenuously theres a middle east in the world and then we have to cope with them miss him oh tenuously theres a middle east its failed state its this and where is your of their. Failed states this and where is your of there or is there its you pretty profound and major influx of. Flocks of migrants far into pretty profound and major influx of. Migrants from libya or to prevent a regime change there where was your of to do that youre opposed to libya or to prevent a regime change there where was your of to do that europe. Really where. The europeans were involved most of the european really where. The europeans were involved most of the european states were. In this involved in the action one kind of one could of course question states in this involved in the action one kind of one could of course question. Interventions in iraq and libya and other in other places. Interventions in iraq and libya and other in other places really. But dont nix it was. Really. But dont nix it was those risks that at least some of the european states find as a vital risk that at least some of the european states find as vital and this is for them more important and more imminent then. And this is for them more important and more imminent then. And nato has to take care of that because theres an alliance that has defense commitments and nato has and nato has to take care of that because theres an alliance that has defense commitments and nato has to react the question is what. Sort of measures does nato take the question is what. Sort of measures does nato take and to what extent these defense commitments go and heres a clear restraint committed what extend these defense commitments go and heres a clear restrained commitment as well so for example if you look at back at the decisions made in washington 2000 segment as well so for example if you look at back at the decisions made in wall show in 2016 germany is that yes we have to reassure the baltic allies and the next in germany is that yes we have to reassure the baltic allies and the polish but we should keep it limited we should not. Have the whole of polish but we should keep it limited we should not. Have the whole night overwhelming our the whole middle east on fire but to be have to reassure the bolts. Are the whole middle east on fire but to be have to reassure the the bolts and. Poles right thats the european view of security. And the poles right and thats the european view of security very very. Wrong. Or very very. Wrong. Or. In order. To fund a lot. In order. To fund a lot of risk and dangerous but of course one can not just of risky and dangerous but of course one can not just. Existing is not. Existing is not. Existing the fact of life its a fact of political realities and you have to perceptions by the existing the fact of life its a fact of political realities and you have to respond if we are talking about the European Security within the need or framework response if we are talking about the European Security within the need or framework are we still talking about European Countries as are we still talking about European Countries as russias primary interlocutor within the russian nato council or is it still the russias primary interlocutor within the russian nato council or is it still the United States that is calling the shots. I would guess the United States that is calling the shots. I would guess that russia is clearly focused on the United States nato is concent russia is clearly focused on the United States nato is comes on the boats operation of balances of russias comes on the baltic globalist about separation of balances of forces russias comes on the ball the global strategic balance of forces and the focus is clearly on the us but not only and not eager to balance of forces and the focus is clearly on the us but not only and not exclusively of course russia is interested in having close ties to go safely of course russia is interested in having close ties to at least major european nations and this is what happens personally regret that at least major european nations and this is what happens personally regret that the dialogue in the nie to Russia Council was stopped after 2 has always known that the dialogue in the nie to Russia Council was stopped after 2014 its a political dialogue sometimes goes on still because the best of those meeting 14 its a political dialogue sometimes goes on still it was done best of those meeting so you know 4 times a year thats not enough the military to military dialogue is important so you know 4 times a year thats not enough the military to military dialogue is important it takes place based on the German Initiative in vienna in they always see from bird takes place based on the German Initiative in vienna in they always see from work in squads a socalled structured dialogue so all nato states and russia and all the other words that is the in squads are socalled structured dialogue so all nato states and russia and all of the other words that is there its go there and discuss the issue its not just europeans or just anybody its go there and discuss the issue its not just europeans or just i think the next day the the me discuss the issues in here on that but why and the push comes to shove the next day the me discuss the issue. But why in the push comes to shove russia and turkey calling the shots without europe being seen anywhere russia and turkey calling the shots without europe being seen anywhere do you think europe has to take perhaps a more. Do you think europe has to take perhaps a more proactive stance when it comes to its own security not only within the nato framework but active stance when it comes to its own security not only within the nato framework but also outside. Quite convinced of that it is not enough only to look at also outside. Quite convinced of that it is not enough only to look at the European Affairs but it is a Central Point and this is located graphic at the European Affairs but it is a Central Point and this is located graphically so we have to take care about our security in europe for us but the periphery counts and so we have to take care about our security in europe for us but the periphery counts and theres no question and i what im personally missing is a coherent european approach is no question and i what im personally missing is a coherent european approach to the risks and dangers in the periphery of europe and this is its there are risks and dangers in the periphery of europe and this is what you have just mentioned because russian cooperation in those in syria. Does mention this because russian cooperation in those in syria should also be a warning shot of warning call and it. Would be a warning shot of warning call and it was. Originated by the american restore from that maybe the europeans relied too much originated by the american restore from that maybe the europeans relied too much on the american resistance in syria or on the on the american. In syria or on the american support for the kurds and now its time for the europeans to take action and thats why american support for the kurds and now its time for the europeans to take action and thats why several politicians have made a proposal to include. Several politicians have made a proposal to include European Forces as well 1st to establish a security zone in the noise an area of syria European Forces as well 1st to establish a security zone in the noise an area of syria see how this discussion. Pins have taken the missile see how this discussion. Pins have taken the missile ok well mr ritter we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned ok well mr ritter we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. Give easy valve and. Give easy vote. And thats us. And. For unions. Its for unions. Its the rational assaults the. Rational assaults the. Desire for a lot of needy thief. And a lot of needy thief. Zuma. More than a financial. Member. More than after financial. Ah. Ah. Welcome back to worlds apart thats whats going to reach their fellow at the judgment institute find welcome back to worlds apart thats going to be fair value add they just an institute for international and Security Affairs mr ritter before the break you mentioned the defacto collapse and Security Affairs mr ritter before the break you mentioned the defacto collapse of the arms control framework particularly as it relates to europe of the arms control framework particularly as it relates to europe and i think the year 2009000 was critical in this regard and i think the year 2019 of was critical in this regard the americans visit europe from the on f. Treaty without consulting the americans visit from the on f. Treaty without consulting european allies at all how much of a deal. European allies at all how much of a deal is that for you for the europeans so there was a consultation there are several is that for you for the europeans so there was a consultation there are several you might remember that in december already there americans provided evidence for that remember that in december already there americans provided evidence classified evidence that russia would break the enough treaty and ribbons and that russia would break the i dont know if treaty and germany and france and others that we need for us to have a look was russia and france and others that we knew it. For us to have a look was russia and the result of that delay was that the americans said ok we give you 2 months and the result of that delay was that the americans said ok well give you 2 months more time and. Your security concerns about all it was not enough of the time and. Your security concerns about all it was not enough has occurred the consequence i personally would have appreciated if you could have. Occurred the consequence i personally would have appreciated if you could have reciprocally verified the issues because there are several issues on the table concessions really very issues because there are several issues on the table mutual concessions and we all agree it and it was a longstanding principle for arms control and we all agree it and that it was a longstanding principle for arms control it was all very fit cation control is just. Intent is all very fit cation control is just. Intent but very few proves the facts so regrettably we didnt very. Very ficus improve the facts so regrettably we didnt verify did verify so i have the feeling that there were other Political Considerations did very far so i have the feeling that there were other Political Considerations behind it you know that we the russians i think sometimes overly sounds behind it you know that we the russians i think sometimes overly sensitive to being ignored or disregarded when at the defense you being ignored or disregarded when especially when it comes to our security concerns i think russians sometimes take slides there especially when it comes to our security concerns i think russians sometimes take slides very easily and because of that its very difficult for the russians john to stand why easily and because of that its very difficult for the russians john to stand. Why is why are the europeans so nonchalant in when it comes to is why are the europeans so nonchalant in when it comes to their relationship with nato and the United States because the United States is or their relationship with nato and the United States because the United States is disregarding your security interests plain and simple over the last couple of years and you have disregarding your security interests plain and simple over the last couple of years and yet. The europeans are still paying lip service to ne there and the north atlantic the europeans are still paying lip service to nader and the north atlantic collective security even though you know you know full well that collective security even though you know you know full well that your interest when the push comes to shove im not taking into account your interest when the push comes to shove im not taking into account seriously they may be listened to but theyre not taking into account. Seriously they may be listened to but theyre not taking into account. I have a different impression on that the americans of course took into account secure i have a different impression