Looking forward to your town as are. 2 year. This is what happens. This is what happens to pensions in britain. You watch kaiser report the pensions in britain. You watch kaiser report. Hello and welcome to cross talk were all things are considered im. Alone and welcome to cross talk were all things are considered times here lavelle all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political instability all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite in many countries the old ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many are few and far in between the elites while the prospects for the many are few and far in between the elites have answers for todays growing problems. Have answers for todays growing problems. Ability im joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and he. Joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and hes a former u. S. Diplomat and former advisor to the u. S. Senate Republican Leadership is a former u. S. Diplomat and former advisor to the u. S. Senate Republican Leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century one plymouth we have he is the. Executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to Joshua Landis he is director of the center wired dot com and in norman we cross to Joshua Landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in the middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st in norman in time we want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over braggs it in the u. K. Many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over brags that in the u. K. We have the division in the United States is there a lot of instability out there hey we have the division in the United States is there a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there 1st is an indication that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen and the number of other countries in the region how do you and what possibly and probably will happen and the number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua well i think youre right lebanon is one of the elect upon that go ahead joshua. Well i think youre right lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most indebted country in the world riad salame a the head of the central bank 3rd most indebted country in the world riad salame a the head of the central bank said it but the country will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the senate the country will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways i think a reflection of the protests are in many ways i think a reflection of a tremendous change in the world a an income gap that is yawning tremendous change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from across the world but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from across the world you know europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent you know europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst its 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia is 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle but but its that you know in america are hovering in the middle but but its that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria youre see bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria youre seeing this kind of explosion of real you know theres not enough seeing this kind of explode. Of real you know theres not enough jobs theres bad Government People are robbing at the top and the public feel bad Government People are robbing at the top and the public feels like theyre getting a very bad deal and theyre up in arms you know patrick and ideals like theyre getting a very bad deal and theyre up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that joshua just said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduce everything that joshua just said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up actually you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the youthfulness call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. Under 18 and what process of a lot of these countries a lot of people. Under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here whats it going to take the clicks do they have here but my issue is with governance here whats it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead back because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because theres so many uprising zork does so much political unrest happening simultaneous theres so many uprising zork does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think theres a tendency by the media by political commentators uneasily and i think theres a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political economist to try to find some generalized by economists and political. Column is to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe whats like a global phenomenon i think that was a mis terms to sort of describe what its like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of suit stake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have different aspects and and i think the reality is you have you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for analyzing this youve got posts about overarching frameworks for analyzing this youve got post colonial identity issues youve got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are so many all identity issues youve got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from the old war one you still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from the old war one youve got neoliberal policies elian lasy of neo liberal policies you have youve got neo liberal policies elian lasy of neo liberal policies you have u. S. Meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u. S. Meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u. S. Foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that affects us Foreign Policy this is also a big big issue how that affects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist social economic structures soviet era collective. Social economic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing as countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything they are economically completely dependent on thing that they produce they import everything they are economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and in ngo sector economy that sort of drives them things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country thats just one example so its it is very difficult middle class in that country thats just one example so its it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because its it wasnt just an uprising to do with because it wasnt just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized. Revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class Global Citizen yet that exists virtually their identity middle class Global Citizen yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they dont know what to be from social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they dont know where to go with this change well the political organizing isnt there that the ideas arent there to go and go with this change well the political. Organizing isnt there the ideas arent there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. On t. V. In about 3 minutes and many where with it you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. On t. V. In about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now you know i gan you know that this has a lot to easing to me let me go to james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and b. People being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here and be people being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering theyre doing choir is we we have global elites that are not delivering theyre doing quite well and they dont have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people well and they dont have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protesting out of the fact that they dont see that they have protesting it in more than protesting out of the fact that they dont see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think the future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disputes of the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate group was just like it because it really is like its. In private spaces that we could later but the notion was accumulated a bit and it was communications and cellphones and whatsapp and things like that i cant help ok sure that and those people phones and whatsapp and things like that i cant help but wonder though peter that what what more is there that. Was what under here or what i forget what what more is there the. It meets the i always wonder why for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people in the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases and other cases they dont get or supposedly protesting against in many cases and other cases they dont get such good press for example ive noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of that such a good press for example i have noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which are the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things were describing think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things were describing but theyre bad you see because there are there are there are there are there are not really but there are the bad that you said betty because there are other there are there are there are not really but there are the bad kind of populist as they pose to whats wrong kong thats going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong a good populist as they pose to whats wrong kong thats going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly theyre dependent educated ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly theyre depending on it was it say about spain they have it thats right and if the catalogs are it we should say about spain they have it thats right and if the catalogs are protesting with thats good but if spaniards who want spain to Stay Together a protest theyre protesting with thats good but if spaniards who want spain to Stay Together are protesting well thats bad so i think theres i cant help but but suspect that theres a theres a thumb on the scale and terms. Of our perceptions i i keep waiting for i think well thats a bad so i think theres i cant help but suspect that theres a theres a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for a levy to tell us which ones are the good times which are the bad ones that people will burn are already levied to tell us which ones are the good about and which are the bad ones. But he can keep his mouth shut as far as im concerned joshua you know. He can keep his mouth shut as far as im concerned joshua you know. Patrick marty mentioned. Us involvement particularly in the middle east Patrick Marty mentioned. Us involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of her where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices across the country as is below that is elected to the offices across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the end then like threatening turkeys economy a great deal of popularity and then that the in the in the end then like threatening turkeys economy and things like that i mean this and make that thing the same in any this ad or thats what i mean to make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar in the us in the Financial System to punish countries around the world that we using the dollar in the us in the Financial System to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesnt it go ahead joshua it does look at this takes more options off the table doesnt it go ahead joshua. It does you know look at sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate refine to your Foreign Policy trying to become regulars it late. 0 your Foreign Policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and were seeing that in iraq right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and were seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because theyre not with sanctions on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because theyre not going to take it lying down and syria is in desperate straits and now the United States is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild going to take it lying down and syria is in desperate straits and now the United States is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u. S. Has been debating whether they in lebanon of course the u. S. Has been debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese elite has been arment but you know the lebanese elite has been. Sucking money system for a long long king much money out of the same system for a long time and and and you know it would be terrible if 11. 00 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody you know it will be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isnt the sort of lungs of the middle east he wants lebanon to collapse because it really isnt the sort of loans of the men. At least where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort something where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground except play ground but on the other side of levon teen playground on one hand its a playground but on the other hand its a its a refuge for all kinds of thinking of the middle east streets or writers if you wish for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who cant find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it who cant find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment in collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. Its hard to see how theyre