Hard to tell what normal even means at this point how will the college 19 ordeal change the way we run our politics economy and social relations well it just doesnt amount joined by William Robinson professor of sociology at the university of california at Santa Barbara professor romans and its good to talk to you thank you for your time thank you for having me on i can see that youre also connecting with us you know a whole no no the only one you have in a whole order or almost a month. What its been like for you. Well were on yeah were on lockdown the University Closed over a month ago in the 1st week of march and we moved to Online Education i mean this is a completely different light we know wont last forever but i also think that were never going to go back to normalcy it will be by normalcy is great. And now youve been writing about the perils of capitalism globalization for many years and i think its fair to say that youve been traditionally radical about it by the standards of the wall street journal i wonder if these last weeks and months have changed your analysis in any way not at all i think its confirms my analysis ive been arguing for the last decade or so that what were capitalism crisis is both a structural crisis and it is also a crisis of state when youre going to see in a capitalist edge of money and this pandemic did not cause the crisis you know only major they asked me yesterday and may and revealed to the whole world and its going to aggravate all of that the dimensions of the crisis the Health Emergency relents but were still going to be left with this dual crisis of structural the structural crisis of the economy and the political crisis of state legitimacy and have generally been mainway how base that structural crisis manager after its off is very interested and accelerating inequality you know they talk like for sound a warning more that. We should undermine capitalism a. Nation difficult to function its a bit like a snake eating its own tail i wonder how do you think they called it 19 condemning is going to just bag these. Struggling system do you think its going to x. And its like time by a little bit or do you think it will be ultimately to final blow to it and i did. Well i wish that were the case now but to be honest with you im a democratic socialist but lets look at whats happened a global inequalities are simply unprecedented weve never seen these levels you mentioned one percent controls over 50 percent of the worlds well welcome or relevant data is that 20 percent of the worlds people those that could supply them the system control 95 percent of the worlds wealth so 80 percent of the worlds population and thats somebody they cannot consume and so that will economy has been pouring out over recent years and decades more and more well but the Global Market cannot absorb that well so that has lets a. Stagnation this has been a crisis waiting to happen this year actually mention of a crisis and i just say you know it would have happened without the virus that myself but many others have been talking about us being on the verge of a major recession even deeper than a recession if the us for instance that iran if tina had declared a moratorium on its debt that would have triggered this giant structural crisis and the measures that are being taken now to address the emergency their temporary measures but theyre going to aggravate the long term structural dimensions but i think what bastes. Ahmed 19 or deal dreams. Been assassin or structural agree justin and what i mean by that is that Global Production change will have to reconfigure if i may you want it or not rein governments including the American Government i now actively thinking about bringing the production oh. Supply home and data hardly a positive development when the transnational capital classes. Yes but thats temporary on the contrary what i refer to as transnational elites have been some have been actually well 1st of all the measures taken by governments especially the u. S. Government is 0 is good just very similar to 2006 and those. Measures that only only going to aggravate the underlying structural contradictions of global capitalism i think the problem is with the thinking of salmond the thinking and if planning because one thing that the creatures of capitalism have now been taking into account is a risk that the Global Economy can come to a halt their weight happened over the last couple of weeks and months and once you factor that enter your notion of profitability changes dramatically all of a sudden the world stops being your oyster and its easy to see how localizing production and consumption in a wide specific area may seem like a safer option and i being by extension its going to give global government local communities more Bargaining Power in dealing with this huge company well this chamber that doesnt mean theyre going to get their way i mean the only way out of this crisis is a major restructuring of the system it cannot continue with this nail liberal capitalist it was a should model of the last several decades but so far what states are doing in a suggestion way to the principal state in the world the strongest in the world the United States is repeating what we did in 2008 which is to send mr amounts of resources to the banks so you are right that we cant continue the way we were and youre also right that a lot of transnational beats and state officials are recognizing that but that doesnt translate into the banks and the Global Corporations that drive the Global Economy to actually force them to undertake major restructuring and there is a robinson to be very serious i think what we see around the world is the government giving assistance not only to banks and Large Industries but also to die most vulnerable citizens there is a lot of talk about action of a basic income many governments are sending checks that isnt maybe thats not enough. But i think that. Thats a bit of a difference from how it was handled in 2008 lets look at this the figure and this is the economist magazine economists just get a sense that you know that already 7 trillion dollars have been approved at least stimulus packages just in to European Union and the United States 1st of all the best majority of that is going to corporate bailouts and secondly its going into injection of money into the banks to do it they want the banks are not obliged to help yes yes theyre released true grounds but theyre not going to resolve this structural crisis theyre basically crimes that are better in some countries like germany and denmark right here in United States 2400. 00 for a family of you know 2 grand winners is absolutely nothing its irrelevant perms and well when you multiply it by millions that have actual lot of money taken out of a state coffers you know its a few billions of dollars its absolutely not and but but look at Something Else also theres also billions of dollars here in the United States going to Small Business they are getting long in 3 months they have to pay back that no roads so theres no real fundamental restructuring here the same thing for instance the i. M. F. Just announced a trillion dollar package for poor countries and us and its and a moratorium on current more tournament pavements but once they have to resume payments were going to be back in the same situation make it out to get there on the internet isnt it also a chair that initially one shadows sat. Stimulus measures right now as they were in one line with what has been done before but i think the governments are and asking it as they go away and there is a will act or theyre running a discussion in the United States to be written off in the companys hed die and lawyers or the majority of the employees employed so. I think we can be certain how this house from this day is going to ultimately manifest itself but well lets put it like this the battle for what will happen after the Health Emergency itself rastas is now underway and there are certainly many who i sincerely among states among transnational waste that are saying we need a major restructuring and this is the starting point for these kent again as in stimulus measures and the really programs and if these voices win them then that would be that would certainly be a way forward but currently we dont have any indication that theyre going to win and the real economic and financial me main with the banks and we name with those sectors of the global or corporate class that are simply course since a more profit making and more assertive now you mentioned a moment ago that they see this crisis as a crisis of state legitimacy and i think Many Political scientists would disagree with you because. They would suggest that this crisis if anything has reasserted the importance of a nation state that you mean just like you dont own child i know you do but it is dont know chopras telling g. M. What to do not the other way around hasnt called it 19 actually reasserted the importance of nations maybe as a way to reorganize our social lives absolutely im not arguing anything differently and on the contrary the crisis demonstrates that we need the state we need sentence attention in the market in the economy we need state regulation when i speak about a crisis of state richard im a senior generally im not referring to the un research into how billions of people around the low. World dont consider their own governments in their own states legitimate dont trust in those governments and in a capitalist system to resell their survival needs. To mention chunk i in one of your articles here accused him of quote criminal inaction and as a spy i took it upon himself to close the borders before it became Standard Practice he took a lot of criticism for that as well im sure one can find many peoples records actions but isnt it inevitable that any government would be elaborate in dealing with so many and elams. And then in the case of look at trump this is very clear the timeline is very clear on january 30th the World Health Organization declared local and out of the global emergency and trump all he did after that announcement was to suspend flights from china and we lost all of february in the 1st quarter part question of march it wasnt until march 14th the truck just layered a National Emergency so we lost 6 weeks and during those 6 weeks trump was saying that this is a democratic hopes that the whole economy is going to reopen in april 1st that more people die of the flu than of this pandemic so absolutely you cant defend trump this criminal inept its a no thats not the case for other governments around the world i mean look at the fantastic job of the south korean government gitmo chinas reopened again but as far as is trump i would defend that criminal ineptitude and i know that you have an issue with lawyers add. That at a moral and ethical category ad previous a couple of years ago that in the beautiful fair world of the future well have to i downed a National Citizenship and when it comes to and gag orders really very well line of the balance i may not well yes for a Health Emergency but thats very different than what ive been arguing we have several hundreds of millions of transnational migrants we have an increasingly globally integrated Production Service and Financial System and capital and corporations have been moving around the world in finance with many more accelerated fashion for the last few decades and yet people and people have been to men increasingly economies such as the u. S. Economy is dependent on transnational my grans are but puzzles my hands migrants when they go from one person to another the World Economy and play a Critical Role in that economy they dont have civil rights they dont have medical rights they dont have the rights of citizenship so thats an extremely unjust arrangements. And theyre also a chance of getting a square tell you that they are also driving the wages down as make Labor Protections while the local. Population is far more precarious do you think theyre wrong on that. Absolutely the wrong because 1st of all here in the United States we have our right here in california which is one of the best its a whole world where we have an incredible labor source shortage see if this Health Crisis continues california will collapse and the majority of those articles will workers are immigrants and i dont know any u. S. Citizens that can get any job that has for Political Rights that want to go and pick strawberries in the field but thats not the larger issue i think. Youre a person are going to not change you a week so much of isolation im sure there will be a lot of people we should use it become stronger is i mean i have a ball here mike now im so sick and tired of you know we have to take a short break right now and perhaps if youre if you are. One of the. Working from home but may be back in a few moments thank you. Im not for decapitating anybody but i am for day capitalizing all the wall street bankers by shifting the center of gravity of money from the dollar and fear to bitcoin and thats perfectly within our purview our scope as global citizens who wish Justice Justice through free competition and hard money thats the only justice stud matter thats to stay in a ball thats real that doesnt rely on politicians. Welcome back to worlds a partner William Robinson professor of sociology at the university of california at Santa Barbara should i said speaking about the response to this and demick i think its a bit counter to you even ironic that the countries with the most laissez faire economies like lets say the United States had to impose chadli restrictions on businesses while a country like sweden and this beacon all what today socialists chose not to do that we each approach your own who are sympathetic to. Absolutely the traumatic a lockdown is crucial and necessary in the United States and European Countries with that and then the kid but my biggest concern of me has wrestle with the whole world and the lockdown which is imposed for instance in india in the Central American countries and south africa where 6070 percent of the population is in the Informal Sector and besides if they love it if youre homeless and you dont spam always living in one single rooms also project tony left a message that we do need to at least you know in france in the United States and russia is actually a death sentence for a 100 you know hundreds of millions or billions of people in other parts of the world yeah thats actually a very Crucial Point that south isolation is a strategy if you are sending this pandemic is a privilege that not everybody can afford now and we are yet to see how different approaches that how outcomes in Different Countries i think its fair to say that for the time being more than sway then and in the United States the dow toll continues to climb but i think its also cheery that these kind of a long downeys absolutely unprecedented i mean its a shame really invented the history of capital is nothing of the sort has ever been that something on cheers shoggoth by where is this calibrated and b. Out of egypt beach it was instituted almost everywhere in the world i mean the little reaches countries of the well that means right you know what but what that shows is if the major states in the world can almost overnight lock down the population and close down the economy for the Health Emergency then the same can be done through the economic and social emergency that weve been facing long before the content i mean that moves the points. And that and that also through the plane that perhaps they said transnational capital is im not as. Strong and carter plan and plan show as your theory them to be. No i dont think that proves the point at all because again if again you know this lockdown and the paralysis of the company is very temporary but then measures taken and thats why i stressed this points earlier the measures taken to take trillions of dollars and give notes of the banks to do as they will suggests that the transnational capitalist class is going to come out of this winning unless you know theres theres both state give theres more and like members of the elites and states and unless theres also some mystery government you know mass strikes and pressures from below to do something different. I mean because europeans are talking about bad before and that if the banks in deep can keep me and read that old ways that would be true that will reduction and because as you very adequately argue you know capitalism can all go on for the like bad being the structural imbalance that exists where you know they dont reach having all the money and be the rest of us having no money to spend ultimately makes capitalism incapable of functioning why should they come up with some bare alternative for that state yes absolutely but the thing is that an individual corporations individual capitalists have only one thing that theyre interested in is maximizing profit so we need state and mess up your control and regulation will return pittel a