India and everywhere else for. What is it that the british are attempting to do to kind of you know with the Zionist Movement was radical right well the the basic goal the strategic. Israeli Palestinian Conflict is not the product of ancient ethnic hatreds nor is it the tragic clash between 2 peoples with claims to the same land it is rather a manufactured conflict the outcome of a 100 year old colonial occupation by jewish zionists and israel backed by major imperial powers starting with the british and a century later with the United States this project from its inception has always been about the forest and often violent displacement of palestinians from their land the seizure of that land by the colonisers and the rendering of the palestinians as non people as if they never existed. This century long the so 1st by the zionists and later by israel has always been waged against an addiction is people to force them to relinquish their homeland to another people against their will yet to state this incontrovertibly fact of jewish colonization supported by a numerable documents official statements exhaustive reports at Historical Records on events sees israels defenders leveled charges of anti semitism and racism against those who speak this truth joining me in the studio to discuss this colonial project is Rashid Holliday the edward cited professor of modern arab studies at Columbia University and the author of the 100 years war on palestine the history of settler colonization and resistance 1917 to 2017 so you pull from the historical record from documents and make i think absolutely compelling case that from the moment of zionist settlement in palestine they knew exactly what they were doing they knew what the end gold was which theyve largely achieved and that was surprising for me as. You know from what you dug up and their story called record how frank you know how clear sighted they were from the beginning haim weissman and others and so talk about that well they were clear sighted and they were fraying but they were more frank in private than they well public because in public they were quite disingenuous really right i mean the british restricted them to a formulation called a National Home for the jewish people in palestine that was not there or a valid objective which was a sovereign jewish state control over immigration which would have a jewish majority in all of palestine right would imply that entailed ethnic cleansing because at the beginning think you have a figure in the early 20th century jews were 6 percent to 6 percent 917 yeah and 94 percent i mean whats always i lived in israel what always has struck me is this historical amnesia where from the 7th century when. Palestine becomes part of you know in a muslim entity all the way up to 948 is utterly a racist for the historical record. Well thats thats i mean theres a manufactured forgetting if you want theres a creation of an alternative narrative part of it related to the biblical narrative and part of it just manufactured the plant that the that was emptied precisely is no way to lend lend without a people for people without a land and so on and so forth but you make i think a very important point that that is always. Part of colonisation exactly right i mean if you read what the earliest zionist leaders say but in the end they were only any project if you read what the earliest zionist leaders say they are talking the language of every settler colonial project you point. Jabotinsky hurtful they sound like i quote lord curzon here i quote this or that french or british colony colonizer there and it is exactly the same rhetoric the same language the same logic precisely and but theres a striking difference as you point out on this project of colonization which is really at its inception done on behalf of the british the the zionist become a tool they venture a break with the british right well they use the british and the british use them yes although at the end the british have had enough of them although in the end they decided they got the 1st of all they have had enough theyve gotten what they need from the british secondly the british have decided as you say that theyve had enough of them that they need to fight world war 2 in the arab world and they can have all the arbs letting them and finally they have bigger and better patrons in the United StatesRussia Soviet Union whats interesting is that you say that this project of colonization has an important difference in terms of the indigenous population whats the difference well there are a couple differences the 1st is unlike some settler colonial projects which which are based on the utter elimination of the native population or its complete subjugation of north america australia and so on and unlike others where the idea was exploitation of the indigenous population zionism had no use for the palestinians right it also didnt entirely eliminate them there was no genocide there was ethnic cleansing as you suggest because to turn a majority arab country into a majority jewish country had to get rid of a large proportion as much as possible of the arab inhabitants the other difference is that unlike other settler colonial movements this was not an extension of the metropole. Zionism was a project for the jewish people its also a National Project at the same time its a settler colonial project and unlike say the french in algeria were just an extension of france or the 1st british settlers in north america or an extension of the British Crown these were people who had a connection to britain they use Britain Britain use them but britain was not their metropole in fact they were able to move from metropole to metropole zionism is based so in multiple places in carrying out this project of settling palestine so that relationship with the british with. The early scientists understood i forget who it was you were quoting whether it was weisman or other they knew that they needed an Imperial Force behind them they all knew that hurts all knew that and thats why he met the kaiser and thats why he went to the french and thats why he went to savannah i mean the out of insult on vice minister thats why he went to the british war cabinet i think the person youre thinking of is jabotinsky who said we cant do the only honest one among them well he was im sorry to be frank in public he was frank in public and in private right right then go in and vitamin and hurt or very frank in their private diary hurtful says were going to spirit the population of crawled across the borders he never says that in a letter to one of my ancestors where he says oh were not going to do anything to the population but jabotinsky was blunt in public and in private and he said we need an iron wall behind which we can create this this this project of ours they all im quoting from your book they all knew perfectly well that there was no way to reconcile zionisms claims on palestine and its explicit aim of jewish state hood and sovereignty there with the rights and well being of the countrys indigenous inhabitants. Even when i was when i lived in jerusalem. They paid lip service to those right here youre talking about from the moment from its a very inception. Well i quote a letter that heard so wrote to one of my ancestors a great great great uncle at the beginning of the book which you weave throughout the book which may write effective right and i mean its very clear that they completely ignore the idea that theres a people there right they assume that they can either fool them or get rid of them so some way or other and the letter is full of the same disingenuous propaganda that you hear from his reza were going to make their lives better or their lives are better than anywhere else or whatever at the same time as their pop tell puppy lation is being displaced its a death it is being denied it is its resources are being taken its completely disingenuous but unfortunately i think but believed by many people well one of the themes that runs throughout the history is the essential the turning of the majority population into non people you know and this brings up another thing that i try and stress throughout this book this is not just a war by the Zionist Movement on the palestinians its a movement its a war i should say really declared by great powers you know the ratio of the palestinians is really the work of the british in the 1st instance and later of the United States and other powers at a later stage what it why i mean so what the british of course occupy palestine which is part of the Ottoman Empire are in world war 1917 now and the marches on drew sloan. What is what is the british to because they certainly have colonies in india and everywhere else. What is it that the british are attempting to do to kind of you know with the Zionist Movement what is it all right well the basic goal is strategic the british want a buffer on the eastern border of egypt they want a connection between the mediterranean and the gulf as strategic and this is a decision that they reached before world war one in fact this was my doctoral dissertation back in the early seventies i figured this out but to achieve this it was very difficult for them to simply say the other imperialist powers like the french and the russians were just going to take it so for them zionism was a useful tool it was they figured this would be a colonial settler project which they could say were were supporting for you know charitable reasons but which would in effect be that buffer on the eastern border of egypt and which would be a sort of a stronghold for british power and yet its more a little more complicated because the british do the british mandate i mean they do control palestine directly in the same way the french controlled lebannon up until 48 right so you do have british control. And. And yet this Zionist Movement becomes the tool to do what well to establish a a. National home for the jewish people which will in effect be a sort of a garrison which the british the british had the illusion that the zionists would always be grateful to them in 139. 00 that you lose that illusion because when they change their policy and they stop favoring the zionists the zionists turn against them in yet another patron yet as you point out in the book during world war 2 the british build Jewish Military units and they although many. Palestinians actually fight in the british army there they they never. Coalesce in a unit of their own right which. In the in contrast of the jewish brigade british create and and so by 948 the british despite their distance from the Zionist Movement have given them the military knowledge and organization and weaponry precisely eventually take over in fact i mean you put your finger on a key episode which is the creation of the jewish brigade but even before that in putting down the great great revolt of 136 talk about that because i wasnt aware until i read your book of the extent how bloody it was i mean what you say 10 percent of 10 percent of the adult male population is wounded yeah exiled or the president of the ousting an arab and so you had essentially a coalition between what it was 100000 british troops 100000 british troops against about 300000 adult males so one soldier or policeman for every 3 palestinian adult males armed jewish well thats the with thats the point i was getting to exactly what they did in world war 2 is crucial but even before that in putting down the revolt they arm and train vast numbers of zionist militiamen some of them into commando units called night squads headed by a man called orde wingate who is a hero in israel he was and who is described he later on exactly was in burma he is later on described as a psychopath he is the one who carries out targeted assassination was not carried a bible like a fanatic it was you know a nasty character much beloved in israel and according to the website of the Israel Defense forces his spirit animates the israeli are well that might be true i think it is actually targeted assassinations murdering people at night blowing up their houses over their heads or taught them all of that and you you argue in the book that the the so this was a Popular Uprising not well organized exactly a Popular Uprising 3637 by up to 39 up to 39 by palestinians who kind of figured out. What was happening a little belatedly the only revolts against the British Empire that succeed are the ones right after world war one the irish get their independence the iraqis and the egyptians and the iranians managed to limit british power and in fact the iranians pushed the british out of iran the egyptians and the and the iraqis similarly limit british power britains force to grant a symbol of independence the palestinians for reasons that i go into in the book dont really get to that point until much too late by the eve of world war 2 britain is not going to allow a rule of revolt to succeed which is why they bring in divisions of troops and there are a. F. To put down this revolt very very bloodily when we come back we will kill you our conversation about the colonial roots of the israeli Palestinian Conflict with professor Rashid Khalidi. He said to the police so you can reach the other the. One. But on the better side going to the quickly missile that is dismissed. Instead of. The Emotional Learning to. Do if you will still be stuck or your muscles in the course of your b. S. Which visitors to. Use this will create if you go to the church. Compassion. We think he minds be. Soldier to peace off the boots hes wearing. Which to the soul looks like to move the opposing opinion with the new im going to show stuck in the summer watching the police force. Welcome back on contact we continue our conversation about the israeli Palestinian Conflict with professor Rashid Khalidi so were talking before the break about that postwar period right after the end of world war 2 and theres a huge well i would say you know animosity. Between the Zionist Movement and their what have been their british sponsors well this is because of the white paper of 139 explained with that i will the british have until this point unceasingly favor that the zionists the terms of the mandate essentially empower them to create a para state a state elected assembly a Foreign Ministry a government control of education the holes overturn it of government structures that the palestinians are denied the passenger deny precisely so one side is given political and National Rights the other side is given civil and religious rights i. E. Nothing in the way of selfgovernment at the same time the british as we just mentioned have armed especially in the 3639. 00 period arm the zionists so comes the comes world war 2 and the british suddenly realize were going to have to fight this war in the arab world just like we fought a large part of world war one right here we have people who really hate us because they have been following in their press encouraged of course by the italians and the germans the atrocities that our soldiers have been committing in palestine against the palestinian arabs. The arabs might actually be helpful if we win them over to our side so the british the british and the active typical hypocrisy switch from unlimited support for the zionists to they promises to the palestinians theyll be independence in 10 years theyll be limits on immigration and so far thats the white paper design is of course are infuriated and understandably they were given to us. Stand that a National Home for the jewish people meant as soon as youre a majority you get selfdetermination and statehood and all you have to do will hold the doors of immigration open you become a majority and then you will drown them with numbers youll be stronger and richer and so on and so forth and the country is yours suddenly the british are telling them no not quite we have to fight world war 2 we need to stop elite in the arabs and so the Zionist Movement in its in its ingenuity goes in search of new allies where they find they find the United States and the soviet union and thats the genesis of the partition but youre right i thought he had failed to read shift in global power precisely as they had as they did in subsequent periods 48. Huge campaign of ethnic cleansing. Acts of greed just genocide. I wouldnt call it genocide i would call it ethnic cleansing with lets call the massacres massacres repeated massacres are exaggerated massacres are better than that and just one point about this that the key. Population and the key ethnic cleansing takes place before the british and thats right takes place before the state of israel is there before an arab soldier sets foot in palestine 300000 people the entire population of haifa 60000 where you have your family jaffa truck tire population of jeff where my grandfather right right another 60000 people the entire population of arab west jerusalem large part of us are some as jewish large part was our 30000 all these people are expelled before you know the 15th before the british leave before the state is created before the arab armies enter and so the exodus of palestinians under bombardment and after a few key massacres like deadliest seen in april this is take a while and then wiped out a whole village was a i forget the number they killed about 100 ppi 100 people mostly women and children exactly exactly so what happens in 48 is an ethnic cleansing over over a longer period of Time Starting in the spring as i said before the british leave and continuing a during the war between israel and the arab armies that enter palestine and become involved although just to carry out because you talk about in the book thats kind of a misnomer because the arab armies of israel likes to mythologize that theyv