Billions from the magic money tree to tackle coronavirus we ask tribune publisher and jacobin Founding Editor because the current mass working class mobilization could make elites finally see an apology as the worlds deadliest pandemic all support coming up in todays going underground but 1st billions around the world today commemorates and celebrate 75 years since the soviet union saved them from the grip of the nazis after the red army liberated berlin but with the u. K. Death toll now the worst in europe could we see a revolution everywhere to rival russias 1917 revolution joining me now via skype from zurich is the chairman of think tank or racist dr frank youre going to richter thanks so much for coming on as i say 75 years since victory in your approach some estimates have it say the japanese own Financial Times of 50000 may have been killed here in britain just before i get on to other or wide ranging analyses of coronavirus your take on the british response to coronavirus. Well i think the a merc response came in a little bit late saw yuki is one of the most hit countries in europe if not a lot and there might be a devastating 2nd wait for of course its happening we have to wait until the us senate is ready to fight and you need another 12 or 18 months youll finally get all worked arguably that was because in part britain was more concerned about bracks it than coronavirus what did you make of the use apparent 1st response or just to punish italy to actually find them for breaking state aid rules just because they were trying to save the lives of their population well 1st of all about. I should say that we are facing a double whammy in u. K. Presage and call it its a very Unhealthy Alliance and i think the extension backs it that this inevitable im on call it and you keep asking should agree to that believe in order to avoid possible not youll press it but i expect that term of course the main concern is well also in Continental Europe how to deal with scrum 2 is was it by the crisis like italy spain an increase in ice in which to shore solidarity to support each other stronger nations in the last germany is going to new york holland supporting basalts in the west or in the east so we should think about being finally occur on arm front or even curled up once as far as i know Boris Johnson continues to say and his whole team there will be no extension to break scepter deadline date do you think though that it has been the legacy of the 28 Bank Bailouts that is impacting europes response to coronavirus obviously europe the worst hit the continent as regards coronavirus. Well we eldon a lot from 2 laws and 8 and how to handle the crisis in the us not the white way and the right to find those countries and putting up borders again its definitely lights in the corner is present all doesnt know any borders and the whole building chinese walls around the continent is totally misleading or are its really a chance for bible of the book youre not going to face a disintegration of the union i think will come out of it Even Stronger at the end it will even medical advisor saying walls need to go up in fairness you said uncontrolled capitalism has left europe afraid and forgotten do you think there are dangers of social unrest because of coronavirus you know robert what you call the crisis globalization has left a great portion of british and other western Society Impoverished an uncontrolled form of atlas and favoring the richest few has increasingly diminished the middle class and a deep seated resentment of globalization is spoiled or what will quite a great portion of this he perceives themselves to be globalization losers and social welfare systems its not this global as it. Already there are voices here in britain talking of post pandemic austerity do you think austerity policies could push your p. R. B. In countries maybe britain direction lucians on the level of france and 789 and russian i. V. 17 and john are in the if you vote in a well already lost youre proud to call it french you know west voters as the industries of parrots and youve seen similar protests in the u. K. And around the globe the middle class wants to benefit from economic rewards just as elites do now didnt see that france rice or our space on this. Resentment it was mostly elected by globalization losers and finally yes i think we might face another revolution and maybe something similar to the the french revolution and the russians what do you think it will look like because presumably the rich some of whom may be watching this program feel they can lock themselves away in ivory towers they can use private. Infrastructure whether it be water or basic amenities and ignore the massive. Well a lot of rich london are so flat corcoran are virus and all sitting in their nice kartel and mentions summer in norse whereas we have unrest in. Poorer cities and poor regions in the u. K. And across europe and the corner why is this really highlighting you case starkly white boy meant the look of health care and threats the social safety nets to call it if you will outreach you see the British Government attacked the un special rapporteur when he was saying things like you are saying there about the political decisions that were made after 28 as regards austerity and dont you think that a media here run by oligarchy can hide some of this from the general public or at least from the policy makers and Decision Makers so we dont fully understand the world the way you see it well in he has a very Important Role to play here and sing about knowledge spending now trillions of europes pounds and dollars where should the money come from and icing event b. Is indeed austerity but austerity it all group is talking we have to revise or commies we have to help to corrupt parts of society him and. Maybe facing even the class warfare in u. K. Europe and america in america i guess europe minorities are dying at twice the rate of their white pews but its really a longing. Well perhaps there is some realisation of what youre talking about as regards class warfare because elites in nato countries. Are very aware perhaps of this instability and they are blaming of britain secret services for infant blaming sabotage of Health Care Services here from russia from china from iran who knows venezuela cuba and as you know donald trump sees coronavirus as a direct attack on par with pearl harbor and 911 from the peoples republic of china. Well yeah hes making this comparison but. Our its and i think its a wrong thing to do it stole it different and i dont believe the virus comes from a lap one its definitely not a good time to pick another fight is china so the us will definitely amplify the current economic downturn by terrorists to punish punish china for its rule in the else crisis think about not the Great Depression of 20 in 29 at the time most countries are very protectionist accelerating russian salaried in crisis in the same scene might happen again yeah but ill give lee with 645000000000 pounds of quantitative easing here live governments at the same time as they may be blaming china are pouring money into firms that are committed to globalization supporting your viewpoint and if it doesnt work surely natural they should blame bad actors russia china iran you know its so easy to believe theyre so playing its very much a 1000000000 mindset at the end but it wont really help the us at the end of the day and seeing us. Response to cruel of us rude missile you know all of us is built superpower and it was not really able to contain. The barretts belief that the current or cola crisis Something Like a swiss moment for america do you think the media as i say is being successful vo in hiding that level of the crisis we noticed here that there were harley street clinics offering coronavirus tests for the rich in santa pay apparently billionaires have been getting tests at the expense of the hinterland there or in the south of france is the nature of the class war ahead i dont think you know that the media is controlled in western society but the human media especially bytes in the western media landscape it so nobody is following the leading your voice and everybodys seeing the same so it could be that it did end up that the media its missing the point and not quoting of what is coming rouge and the coming hours or about you drinking off the u. K. Economy i think well see a cheapie lots of media minus 1520 percent this year which this incredible and thats what it means for the trucks. But this way its going to be comparable to the Great Depression or well the bank of england 48 hours or so indicating at 25 percent down in g. D. P. If g. D. P. Is indeed a good indicator for quarter 2 you are arguably a good barometer of what policymakers and politicians are thinking about your company does these presumably zoo meetings now with the top ministers what do you make of your successor at the World Economic forum arguably marc benioff chair of the tech Company Sales force saying capitalism as we know it is dead there longer can we maximize profits in a way that only fosters Climate Emergency is this the new future and the policymakers recognise it or will it be back to ideas of maximizing profits of obsessions with debt to g. D. P. Ratios at the expense of the majority. Well we definitely need certain all countries the private sector and Civil Society to cooperate and capitalism in the old way this stuff we have to rescind capitalism and how economies broke and for whom potentially for them you want Bretton Woods down south on them for the entire Global Economy or for green cross and ukraine deal something European Union actually announce approach when you call up writers and you should look at it right now the money in your is corrupt as an apple is an anglosaxon style of capitalism expect us to reposition capitalism with the. Social dimension of capitalism dr frank youre going brecker thank you. After the break is it too late to save what was the west of europes largest socialist movement has essential workers continue to die without protective equipment in the face of an arguably ineffective posthole been labor leader tribune publisher and jacobin Founding Editor because of kwara if theres any hope for the socalled party of the British Working class all the more going to going on the ground. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to guests of the world of politics or business im show business ill see you then. Welcome back this slide coronavirus catalyzed government stimulus seemingly winning the economic argument for socialism across major nations socialist movements in the u. S. And the u. K. Are experiencing that worst defeat for years so do those looking to create a world free from the ideology of neo liberalism need a new model of resistance and organization joining me now via skype from new york is jacobin Founding Editor and tribune publisher bus because of cholera whose new book the socialist manifesto the case for radical politics in an era of extreme inequality is out now basco welcome to going underground so tell me about this socialist manifesto book as its come out and its out now just as the dull compulsion of economic relations as you quote for marks in the book seems to have ended as government intervene overcovered 19 well yes i think were seeing a return of the state or one of the things that i try to express in the book is that even without state policies might change at certain point so might be more laissez faire it might be more stay. Interventionist and other points fundamentally the system is still based on a division between those who work and who have to work for others and those who were owned dont have the same compulsion of course they are compelled in themselves by the market so what i was trying to do with the book was to discuss whats relevant and also question perhaps whats not relevant in the classical socialist vision and to look seriously at the history of past attempts to bring about a better world a world that truly represents not old spared in the enlightenment liberty equality and fraternity yeah its internationalist its local its full of opium ism obviously was written before the pandemic cholera arguably affected paris in in the 19th century ahead of the 848 revolution 118 spanish flu catalyzed. Apparently apartheid in south africa how can cope with 19 affect things in a positive way well i think at the very least its shattering a lot of the illusions that neoliberal lucias of the past few decades so we were always told that there is not enough money its impossible these are these big complex economic and social problems and the state cant play a role in fixing the politics in other words Democratic Politics cant play a role fixing them but now were just seeing that when its needed to prop up the stability of the system to prevent a deeper crisis the government can in fact aggressively intervene so we need to think about is this slow moving crisis the slow crisis of poverty and of hunger and of declining Living Standards and wages and of bankruptcy is and people getting in over their head in Consumer Debt and household debts in credit card. That just to maintain a semblance of a middle class standard of living so if the acute crisis of coronavirus can be responded to with this intense state effort why cant the slow moving crisis to respond to in the same way and i think the real reason is because were yet to be organized together as a class of working people to demand that our every day problems are responded to as an emergency and thats going to take us creating a crisis of sorts for our rulers because you write fairly quickly about the tragedy the defacto martyrdom of Rosa Luxemburg do you think its still relevant today when you talk about how she said gradual changes compares it to the myth of sis offis the gradual change is not ultimately going to get any one anyway. I think that the secret of social democracy and more radical forms of socialism in the 20th century is that in fact radical radical change can get us somewhere and in a way its breaking down this to conduct me between reform and revolution as Rosa Luxemburg put it because in other words today the barriers to reform are so great that the elites. Capitalists who own own things going tro so much of our societies will resist even minor improvements of change so viciously that you know its hard to draw quick that condom in the United States we still have one 6th of our qana me run by the private Insurance Industry you know these are people who have a lot at stake and even something minor like medicare for all of but if you have that part of the economy in the hands of private industry and any you have you know thousands of people making millions and billions of dollars off of this then obviously theyre going to resist it tooth and nail so i think we need to say that our immediate demands are demands that we would call social democratic demands that demands to expand the welfare state your people a little bit more security a little bit more dignity a little bit more respect and their day to day lives and society but in order to accomplish even these moderate goals well need to think about industrial militancy and how we can alter. A road the power of capital over our lives and i think right now the really important thing to remember is that the ideas of the political left are deals that have historically been associated with political left for more justice and more security and for deleterious measures like in the u. S. Medicare for all and jobs guarantee and all these other programs now have the joy. Ready support ill get to elections in a 2nd you know we have a think tank it called the i e a and jump on this program talking about his film the dirty war in the n. H. S. Showed up privatization all of the National Health service was one of the things he i. E. A little bit about it reviewed your book and said its desperate to excuse the failure of attempts to create socialism in the u. S. S. R. And china what they did to me is you yeah i think its ridiculous you know im a democratic socialist democratic socialist were among the 1st victims of some of these systems but the key is to put this into some sort of Historical Context thats how we should really understand things otherwise it just becomes more of a Mountain Heritage that china there was incredibly developed then perhaps he wouldnt have attempted crash agricultural collectivization if he inherited a country there was a ravaged by Japanese Invasion and european imperialism before then you know maybe he would be in a different condition you know we operate in conditions of not entirely our own making and you know obviously its a shame that those on the right will always use any attempts of complexity or nuance or any you know look at the experiences that people had and with with the stain when in fact theres a reason why theres you know millions of pensioners in east germany today they yearn for the german democratic republic of the seventys and eightys and its not because they love authoritarianism are these are bad people its because theyre seeing social chaos theyre seeing cuts to their their welfare theyre seeing what feels to them like an annexation by by forces beyond their control and they didnt really have much of the same so i think we need to speak to the complexity of the communist experience while still criticizing the very gross and very obvious abuses of. Human rights and individual freedoms and so on these systems as a publisher of tribune and and jack and jacobin and what do you think that is behind the criticisms that your friend tickly trying to protect your worldview and i should say its not from the right mainly its from the liberal left the criticisms