Cork and a member of the Royal Irish Academy his latest book is churchill and stalin comrades in arms during the 2nd world war right gentlemen crosstalk roles in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want the house appreciate it or i let me 1st go to demon here in moscow you know d. M. A. Here we go again this is almost like our tradition with our calling jeffrey we do this every single year commemorating victory in europe over fascism and for every single year that we do it we find ourselves in more and more in a revisionist mode here i mean as i understand as were sitting down doing our chat right now is that facebook has banned a colorized version of the of the soviet banner over europe on the very very iconic one of showing victory in europe and you know ive searched around its a true story i mean what in the world is going on here the black and white version seems to be except for the color one. Not are there different meanings or is this a revision and sell and why in the world would anyone want to deny that iconic photographs its like the sailor kissing the young lady on times square in victory over japan i mean what is going on here. Well i dont know which exactly of which were acting exactly. We mean here more likely its their image or west soviet soldier which are not their advantage or rights which was basically the Central Power of that issue of Central Power in the nazi germany so for decades there was no problem with this let you know it for auctions its a familiar image its like that you might or american soldiers would you not a flag. In the pacific during the war with japan you were going to going to cause a scandal here well basically a lot of russians are now thinking i want to play norm why that discrepancy and you have all 3 i mean the Geoffrey Robertson had just you know everybody here this is exactly the photograph or top. Of my goodness and here he has the props even for the program he had no idea it was going to pass theres going to be thats exactly my office at the university so im going to get in there to matter. Yeah so are we russians who are thinking why you describe in russia now is certainly. That the country or the west then the soviet union i will war well of course style we have a pluralistic educator history you know right now in russia you can hear and you can read any kind of stuff about their war what you from and apple do you know what stalinist revisionist you can get everything at and that makes us different from the west now where just the modern narrative seems to be remade in the us. And my explanation is that they are the program is with a new western i go with you because its impossible that the same sad story would suddenly crap and even separate independent compas let you look around their statue or for Marshall Corner removed from prop and a check say it was just the local authority who decided to do it you know then you have r r r you know facebook remove the beast for doing the cover right version of the sport facebook is based in the United States that its not only against russia the name of Franklin Delano roosevelt was removed from everywhere in port unless people could about. And there are every year rules about is still a National Hero in the night you know and thats the medicine just you know did the thing it says here i do it seems to me and i think jim is on to something it is an ideological approach to all this but we cant deny its simply ludicrous to didnt 9 the existence of historical figures now the difference is that glorify them ok i get that all right but you know its almost like the the iconic picture of yalta where you have you know Stalin Churchill and roosevelt and you know in our early in the in this post cold war environment you know somehow that is sacrilegious because youre putting stalin on stage here and im here to let me go to jeff i want you to can only get going on the point is here is that history is something we should learn from it i mean its just not a moral play in the president s go ahead. First announcement theres nothing to this historic revisionist because a long way back i mean almost as soon as the war has ended its history has been revised its going to launch you look for a reason so its not a new post knows it the present time its were in the face period of historic revisionism as you call it see connect it with the current russias relations with the west and look at all of that current. Group one point that might look very much greater russia these days you can say anything you like about google you can actually pull any kind of extreme revisionist views anything its all shes actually much more serious he bites her wool in russia than death there at the recent west but having said that you know it does more than one narrative in the west not. Exaggerated. Account influence of the western liberal me here and western liberal elites such we shouldnt underestimate to to the extent to which among popular conscious is quite a reasonable degree of awareness of the true facts of the will or wont watch and in particular. You know you have to throw somebody like going to read homey. Ok well but we didnt hear that jeff and then why are these it seems to me that their heat for the for the the majority of people the majority of media there is a new revision is a narrative being pushed here but at the same time youre saying that among the population theres a level of awareness i think thats true but i think its getting smaller and smaller i used to teach at the university of california and you know young theyre supposed to be the cream of the crop in their knowledge was very scant and i have to worry that its even worse now because we have saving private ryan and you know we had i think yesterday the white house really giving credit to the United States you came for a victory over the nazis not obviously not mentioning a soviet union in one has to question is that intentional or is it just lack of knowledge finish up on that point. But if there are some countries country nothing United States its probably a straight bat case of. Expected oh no not only history will be starker or vicious narratives i mean arrows originally to discredit comedy is just such a congressman not is a totalitarian well its con kind of saying nowadays of course its political function is to discredit russia that is good just ready to see an end to create a contrast between the west and you marx in russian authoritarianism through a so you know deal bus oshea sion of russia with the soviet union with date dont its a totalitarian pasta so thats whats going to kind of question this. Hour to this continent fish but its any right now its in poland says. Lets actually be part of the contest yes about the slums and who well i mean de mint i mean youve known me for a very very long time and thats always been my gripe is that its very difficult to talk about anything related to russia because its always about context and if you dont have basic facts then you dont have any context ok and thats the. Difficulty and discussing all this i mean you know there are the different narratives about the the war ended 3 as a result of that war i mean ive always taken the position is that most of the soldiers that died didnt die for communism they died for mother russia they died to protect their families their tradition their language their sublists ation the eye of the ideological spine you can put its been there if you can put it there but i dont think thats the majority of the pit opinion of the people that are there my opinion go ahead well i think there are people tonight for who write your reasons you know defend them russia and defend in the soviet union not only russians but i think the main reason what so why well you know the people realize that you know hitler wins but im not going to survive and. What happened later was that. Well crude shocking to power hugh ford style in years and by stunning it means i mean the problem of the character of star is the fall in basically our crew shot removed style and from all their narrative about the war in the same way as starring remove hyun or trotsky from the narrative about the 1970 revolution so what happened on the wooden was now freedom team now you can be astonished you can say that you think stalin you know was very important that he won that war you can be and i study and the majority or if you want russian dead and theres a lot of movies about the war you may know and each of them mentions repression so well in the west they say or study has been. What is being started back that is such a big lie. Because you know the way he grew shopman bradner ford stallions was honest you know i was born in 1970 i remember that i store thought study and picture when i was 13 in 1903 on the windshield of a car you know that was wrong you know whatever we think about stalin as a figure it was wrong to remove his image to remove all memory about him and now the west wants us to repeat eat the same thing you know to demonize the earth and there im returning to this i dont want to call the nyquil the more that ive always told the west i point out to liberals i wouldnt even call it our western i you would you why because its not in the western tradition its very if you want and they should experience you know shakespeare has dimensional characters and the problem with them or the western narrative is that it does not allow them mention of characters and there its. Never again not in the same time if data thats true. And there were leaked in this war it was he has a nerve it was he has the willpower it was he hasnt made it to well into the year we go down there there is the debate there i would say they deserve a union on the war in spite of stalin ok but if he were just demonstrating to our viewers that there is a debate here i see jeff flock being in the in his Little Corner their heads every very good operate of everything youre saying not look at it equal i think i just went wrong she was trying to change Michael Stipe last year which ah yes sally was a brutal dictator but it was also good to see you must equal posted something. Like well if you use some insight or well the west the west western democracy well hitler that suburban Huggins Damon right there if youre not a productive statements in that book ok well i mean in the well kate were just printed on it is that you made a very important part the whitish contest is historical revisionism she is swish it not by producing a composer or as political or large 2 times its a way to contest it with the start of truth and we get to start a true future context contradiction kinds of stuff going on we might not might not much so yeah we have to sort of picture inside but we also have to focus on the nazi package and were going to do after the break were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on remembering victory in europe i mean 5 years ago today. But divided the in 18 will. That were operation in dying one some of the wealthier neighborhoods its been far more contained in the numbers are much lower than some of the for a neighborhood to start to see if anything were working with can source outside state is there just so it is here so i think that it was. During the vietnam war u. S. Forces also bomb to neighboring laos it was a secret war. And for years the American People did not know. How so my skin is officially carry back country per capita all Human History millions of unexploded bombs still in danger lives in this Small Agricultural country jordyn wieber. Even today kids in laos full victim to bombs dropped decades ago is the us making amends for that tragedy in laos what helped to the people need in that little land on. The cross where all things are considered im Peter Lavelle remind you were talking about victory over passions in europe 75 years ago. Ok lets go back to damon here in moscow here right before we went to the break jeffrey brought up the nazi soviet pact of course this is a hotly debated today and with good reason i would say because it kind of flushes out the historical facts to jeff was getting to be born into that you know given you and i have talked about this so many times here and and as you pointed out to me very eloquently yes that pact that exists and there were secret protocols you know that is part of the historical record but the way its being framed right now is that theres something the soviet union is culpable in any unique way because of that agreement but that isnt so most countries in the end europe had some kind of Security Agreement treaty with nazi germany before hostilities broke out in september 1039 you know where im going with this go ahead jim well you are absolutely right now on the ground that actually our well the Russian Orthodox church recently a save said that these who or what the punishment was seems to want people who are angry and you may sad how calm you know you know all these millions of people who are sinful well no but diplomats diplomats representing these countries yes because basically every county in europe with the exception may go through life in some way and look what happened in czechoslovakia yeah ok in some way cooperate with. Between 1033 and then make you what you want so its if you want more also if you want how you dont create evil without huge wants it wants us we have. A good thing you know this nature like you we dont have it youre all study and youre shaped in france you know we cant study in a new drop and that is reduced now in the billions and billions of corpus but we have this nature or. Churchill roosevelt unstarted you mentioned it well im very concerned about the speech because the west and i you all idjit well even that resent dont ask graham evidence because you know here is roosevelt and churchill city and next to that mill and you know or they will simply proceed with that because that will not suit their narrative you know the problem with regular ideologists in the west now as a regular. Is there they twist the past what the political interest will be they removed i dont let it evidence i thought it to be explained in terms i thought of thats what the soviet state with history the future is certain but the past is not exactly a lot of things that we are now saying enough thought crimes in the west now there is no sexier subsonic right now in russia but there are more and more kinds of thought crimes in the west and the problem is that this new western i go if youre this are to liberalism or no member is what we call it it or parades by images by hollywood year image you know stalin is the will and so that means that he is doing what the war started and he too are to blame for the war to megalomaniacs i have been reading it in dolans own books now m. P. P. Most seem to disregard the war would not have been possible without needy and so people preparing for the william lee so the problem is much bigger lend just to make a many x. Well this is the way more than western aid or you removed its amos they always find a leader whom they demonize you know us are or Saddam Hussein you know. They say you dont we murdered him basically ok they dont say mother will remove him and then everything will be fine so they may try to apply the same kind to all narrative the world war 2 which was a very complicated story and very promptly. Well but thats why are you concerned about this its your study and im sure joe it shows that basically people already different beliefs would come to an agreement and fight on be evil and whatnot and i think thats what i mentioned thats what i meant and what i do production we have a pandemic we have different good leaders and different political systems different worldviews but this pandemic doesnt care what your politics are but we cant have Global Solidarity and im not that many people would like this quest to work internationalism because globalism is it that it doesnt go far i mean you. Have been go ahead yes our it will actually fucking my own this ownership but you know my very 1st book which of course of the 30 years ago was called young honey a lot still has its about a nazi sort of action out you know right where you say everyone business with the nazis in the line see it through some very light soul sort it business such as you know. Dismemberment checks not neverless there is something that this kind of unique about the nazi thought that is no equivalent to that fact any secret project did have some rather radical consequences not get getting away from it you know including red occupation opponent east. September 9th ok you can say that the territories that were taken but red army wont really postsurgery as they watch them better Russia Ukraine a united europe 2 republics you know to this certainly a case to be made 0. 80 of the nazis in the nazis were attacked and its a very complicated set of historical events which unfolds as a result of the leading into the us and Jeffrey Jamie you know here i dont think you need to defend i say i wouldnt i wouldnt phrase it that way a defense of it when im i would say is if there is a. A reasonable explanation to understand why a bad thing happened because if you look at munich you have the western powers basically destroying the post world war one International System unilaterally destroying a sovereign state which they had implicitly and explicitly said that they would defend and then you go all the way up to august 39th and you get a more under regis form of it but it is a precedent is set for me its the same price and it may be if you just have to agree i mean thats why i really get too sick and tired of people moralizing about an International System that the western powers had corrupted before but to outsiders nazi germany and the soviet union were involved in it ok this isnt the way back you know and then again i want to make sure i i dont think youd have to defend it you have to understand it go ahead offense at this very like yeah thats a very reasonable and actually cause simple explanation for the nazis when he says hes a threat and actually 1st introduced ali so to create some kind of you know. Grand alliance i found. Peace and the spice of that style in turn to this very dirty to do with this real politic you know deceit you can describe as me and i. Saw it playing so i thought it was the only. Hes not fully did.