Criminal Police Organization interpol issues a global red notice against the suspected cia spy. For allegedly murdering british teenager harry dunn we speak to his familys lawyer Geoffrey Robertson q. C. About what happens to law during coronavirus from jury trials to the u. K. Torture of judy in the sun and from brazil to burning injustice and with the u. K. One of the worlds worst hit countries is Boris Johnsons government following the science of following private health care and big pharma personnel we are the kings fund chief executive Richard Murray also more coming up with todays going underground but 1st what will the law sting human rights legacy be of growing a virus joining me now from london is the world renowned human rights barrister has defended everyone from wiki leaks founder Julian Assange to brazilian president lula cofounder of dow the street chambers Jeffrey Robinson q. C. Jeffrey thanks for coming back on before i even get to coronavirus actually want to do. About terrorism given youve had defended people unjustly accused of terrorism but lets go to the cia which as theoretically protects us from terrorism just take us through the interpol red notice this week on a case of a tragic killing in this country of a british subject by an alleged cia spy well or tactic is certainly the word for it it was a 19 year old boy on a bike and a car large american car came at him on the wrong side of the road and he was killed not over and died in agony later that night and his parents see justice the driver of the car around and circle as was a cia wife probably operative in the times and she was there a quickly taken out of the country by. Her american boss was followed by her husband shes guilty shes admitted she was driving on the wrong side of the terrible accident cause but. The rule of law has any meaning she should be cool people are judged shes charged with causing death by dangerous driving if the cuckoo satisfied that it was an accident then its likely that she will noncustomer the same and it must go i explain this to her lawyer the lawyer rang me and i said look im acting to the done family and i can tell you that its very likely that your client will get accustomed to sense even though the maximum of the hate is called teen years but no one ever gets the maximum and i. 2 of the penknife in she saying and mike are saying no hootie. Are too heavy for this and when we made any written made an extradition request of pay or tore it up you said this is abusive even though 14. 00 times over the last few years britain has waived diplomatic immunity to allow the embassy people to append in washington to be prosecuted because no quid pro quo the americans are holding out insisting that she should be above the law of course this. Is going to me that she can travel outside america because it puts a lot of litigation on any country where she lands to hand her over so that the international. Action by interpol so are you currently representing the done yes there is a case in concerning whether he is or was in fact immune as a diplomats wife the interpol intervention is very important because it brings her to one to america that you just cant do this to an alibi you cant pretend that your people who are in britain spying on your concern for the crowd and. Pretend that about the law or you cant behave as if they are you see that you made the accusation that she may be a cia agent we write a cia novel absconds age well the cia have previously come back to going underground before i dont think theyre coming back at them. And we always invite them and the u. S. Ambassador on there is me there is me no proof no proof she works for the cia and the idea that interpol can issue a red notice against a member of the cia presumably will provide laughter in the department of justice in the United States where they do it i think its a move serious step but she is certainly the wife of a cia operative if you like at cry out. And to allow the parents that a court and hopefully and they have made it clear. They want to embrace every move she comes and and apologizes she has in print this is a matter of simple humanity on National Security issues Boris Johnson has never National SecurityCouncil Meeting since february since the beginning of the outbreak of corona virus as i said youve defended so many people unjustly accused and convicted of terrorist offenses wheres all the terrorist threat gone suddenly has it been as coronavirus revealed that a lot of it is exaggerated i think one of the most amusing and ironic aspects of this red flu crisis was quite early on when it was discovered that ice it was telling its operatives avoid europe you could get the virus so thats why perhaps theyve been so quiet theyre really cowards when it comes to a bioterrorist if not it when it comes to blowing themselves up and we are now are almost as worse off in terms of deaths in america i think the mistakes we have made will need looking at you dont theres not much were lawyers to do in the middle of the rhetoric but they come back. And there will have to be a Royal Commission into how we was so unprepared and how we made so many choices in the early days of barras well there have been indications from ever elusive downing street sources there will be an independent inquiry of theyll have me. I shove them lightly iraq war alone it doesnt go on as long well i should just add of course there was a terrorist attack allegedly claimed to be a nice attack in afghanistan in the last 4848 hours or terrorism isnt going away in the global south i want to get to the lore that is being talked about here though actively its been 2 months since a little wales at a jury trial would you make of lord chief justice lord burnette supporting a reduction of joris from 12 to 7 doesnt seem to be passing but where apparently about to resume jury trials would you have won your cases in 17 years here i would hope so but if eat whatever we do we have to face the fact burke in britain trial by jury is a rucked and you cant in this country resurgence to more than a year in jail without the option of putting your case to 12 good men and women and true that i think corona virus or not must be the case but of course there are 30000 people waiting for their trial and magna carta our other christian right says to no one showed justice be denied we were delayed and hand it is being delayed because jury boxes are small you sit cheek by jowl with each other with the 7 or 12 you expect to rape 2 opponents each other as you move through guilt or innocence and this just work perhaps until we get a vaccine one suggestion has been birthed true juries try that when another suggestion is to be to have the jury in a big building in a great mood. So she. Disc. Another suggestion which i think is got something going poor it is to have jewelry waiver which is a system they havent had no during the last trade and that means an additional right who will be defended not only those the dependent have a right to choose a jury trial but he or she also has a right to choose by judge alone but jeffrey youve been a vocal critic of austerity says 2008 and the cuts to the legal aid surely that would mean a defendant perhaps under duress to try and gather their block who have a tight judge never under you rexs group being entirely as it is to straighten canada or us tire of a matter of the defendant with his own counsel is available politicians lup just as with minister it when they cut legal aid the danger is that they will go we can do away with jury trials and have judges much cheaper to do it its not we must. Past against that no sign of the abandonment of jury trial yet from the johnson government but as you say tens of thousands of cases on hold because of coronavirus its worse arguably in other countries in india 30000000 in brazil reportedly 80000000 cases on hold and of course you remember 0 its terrible there goes the their lead. A man whos a raving who my bowl sonora who says oh its only a little blue a man who. Invites friends to barbecues why. People are dying but theres an interesting Political Development but also narrow his position to a man who mauro who is a prosecutor a hopefully bias judge who. Put together what in my view of fabricate charges against little or more who has made his move was always in his mind was the reason why theres a bias judge convict namely a move for president because hes resigning as attorney general and is now are making statements security olsen are ineffective high crimes and misdemeanors which. Result in both being impeached could wrote good morrow or work with preservation love former brother left name it they they are sworn at him. Because it was more for his own ambition and he wants to be president there will have to be certainly in a couple of years time a new election president that election will i suspect be between you more of. The biased judge prosecutor and lula and i should just say that of obviously you defended loon i debated llewelyn i giving my own opinion exactly which are we invite the brazilian ambassador on this program i should say also this occurs during a coup attempt in venezuela jeffrey wrote and ill stop you very more from the world renowned human rights lawyer after this short break. Through descriptions sound appetizing even for the owners so how to choose the head Food Industry is telling us what to feed our pets really more based on what they want to sell us the most this. Certainly good for the pet turns out and pet food may not be as healthy as people believe and we have animals that have you know diabetes in arthritis and they have auto immune disorders allergies we are actually creating these problems and its a huge have a democrat problems all of them i believe can be linked to fairy simple problems of diet and some dog owners so heartbreaking stories about their pets last treats to larger corporations are not very interested in proving or disproving the value of their food because theyre already making a 1000000000. 00 on it and theres no reason to do that research. Welcome back im still here with world renowned human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson q. C. In ecuador apparently a girl in a virus impact being criticized widely it was across the Ecuadorian Embassy in london where julia songe of wiki leaks was incarcerated allegedly tortured and produced as we now find 2 children. Exactly that theyre for the news that we have shares that love will find a way even past the cia and the British Police well i got to ask you about the say that case obvious hes a leader of the opposition was out of the c. B. S. When as we know attempts were made to incarcerated julian is under wiki leaks why is there nothing really being said by as against armor president perhaps for victory because he was of a c. B. S. And Boris Johnson joining this case that is were hearing in the courts here in britain is a different case that in those days the reef case sure is basically about the extradition. But as far as the americans were they buy that pack they had a secret jury grand jury sitting and it wasnt until to the end they were hes denying they were in any way wanted him but of course they did the pentagon who want to punish him for blowing the whistle they want to punish him for his leaks in 2010 there were apparently disability to buy his source chill see mammy and they got their hands on Joseph Manning and they jailed 30 years were not going to speed up a little jeffrey just Chelsea Manning obviously been released what is your understanding of the case of currently currently underway there who is and who is known as a beret widely criticized for deciding not to release a sergeant compassionate grounds from a prison belmarsh where i understand one place though not in free people are gone down with her own person has died of corona virus and here is that i think that. I think its cruel what is cruel is the fact that hes charged with a pencil rain totaling 175 years he wont get the expert josee manning got years as he saw so the likelihood is that if extradited we will get about 15 years what for for exposing the truth and you issue is whether america is seeking this extradition for political purposes and whether it is an infringement of freedom of expression but the problem is it starts again hearing evidence and. It could go on for a couple of years and there is this man whos not. Fully yet can be made subject to all sorts of late bracelets and Electronic Devices to ensure that he never steps outside. And be. In britain for 2 to 3 years before the case is decided jever oh its a case if they care. The care the highest coronavirus death toll in europe despite Boris Johnsons government insisting it was well prepared for the pandemic but according to German Government supporting labor politicians johnsons covert policy is now a thinly veiled declaration of class war joining me now via skype from london is the kings one chief executive Richard Murray thank you so much richer for coming on so some people are estimating 5 percent of all care home elderly people are being killed by covais that want to get a class war thats going to demographic war your senior fellow professor richard im for is claiming it was a sophies choice the canting infected elderly patients or hospitals to care of some test. To then with temperatures and go to leaven suggests well i think 2 things of happened in care homes and the 1st certainly is a real pressure from the n. H. S. At the start of a code epidemic in england of getting people out of hospital some of them into their own homes but also some of them into care homes and i think we really need to know exactly how often were people sent out with some degree of symptoms and what help care homes were given what were hearing is anecdotal and in many cases that the pressure to free up beds in the n. H. S. Led to patients being discharged into care homes but possibly without the kind of infection security controls that really should have been in place given youre at the kings fund is that credible there was certainly was a huge push in the n. H. S. To trying to clear our capacity at the same time we did need to follow up very quickly with what help and what support care homes would be given not only because patients are being discharged from hospitals but simply because there is such high risk anyway of their own star of relatives going in and out of the care home and possibly bringing in the disease you see a lot of people are talking about the fact that these questions really need to be raised at a future independent inquiry rather than now whats your opinion because arguably care homes the elderly theyve been worst hit by purse 28 austerity is a war and has this been a war only elderly in the city well actually if you look at. Incomes of the big recession in 2008 the elderly actually did rather better through that it was young people in particular that took the brunt so i dont think theres been a war on the elderly in that way but there clearly needs to be some way of learning the lessons that coded from the coded pandemic and we got to remember that its not that everything was perfect when this began in february things like the relationship between care homes and the n. H. S. Have been approached. And for a very long time there was almost a breakdown in relationship with general practitioners early in the year about who was going to provide care in care homes but what i really want to get to i suppose is was this a delivery deliberate choice by the British Government back in 2014 you said tory government de facto slashing of n. H. S. Services to fund the Bank Bailouts was a Political Choice despite what you just said about the elderly the un special rapporteur on poverty said the elderly were subject to the Political Choice of the immiseration of the vulnerable and of course there are many more people that are vulnerable than the elderly. People with Mental Health conditions with physical disabilities so the elderly are one group that are vulnerable but they did get something from protection through this period the poor in general did not its the case that the system that we were in by the time of february covert arrived was leaving a lot of Like Services and a great deal of difficulty and h. S. Was actually slightly protected against many other social care definitely was not elements of support for low income people to flee was not so the covina rind it was already dealing with a society in a country that had some real vulnerabilities in it the reason i am focusing on the poor as your will well know is that the kings one was founded in the 1900 centuries to focus on the poor as access to health care is it difficult for the kings fun to be independent when your funded by matt hancock who of course gives us these briefings about coronavirus well fortunately for the kings fund what we were set up we were given a foundation and that gives us a significant degree of independence and we ensure that we are we do draw income from other sources whether its research or the things that no one of them is big enough that we could live without it and. That secures our independence and if you again look back to the things they said in 2014 were clearly not shy of criticizing the government when we think it should be but do you believe that the landmark social health care or social act 2012 do you think that that has dictated our response to coronavirus the privatization or as john pilger the veteran journalist said on this program the dirty war on the n. H. S. That that act. Was symbolic of. The 2012 act we think what was not a success it was in many ways set the n. H. S. In the wrong direction on a path of competition we really wanted was needed was better integration of services and weve been very clear about that i think what were seeing through the coronavirus is one more of it unfortunate legacies for ever for the system is the n. H. S. Is governed as a as a separate body of course care homes or social care theyre largely commissioned by local authorities and that division i think has been one of the reasons why the system struggled so