Reason the paralyzing. The air and. The media. Is the charge just. To discuss that im now joined by a. Friend director of Research Development. And the Harvard School of journalism media and culture and so good to talk to you thank you very much for being with us. Thank you very much for having me now karen blaming journalists or the media for creating a beehive is as old as our profession the south but. Is that really an applicable charge in these days. When it wasnt i think when the big National Governments and International Organizations like the double your children were behind the most apocalyptic predictions about both the scale and belief thousands hell call that 19th prediction that thankfully failed to realize but created a lot of fear or perhaps a lot of justifies here and on the left. Well i think that obviously the pandemic is an extremely scary situation for everyone around the world and its also extremely important for you insist to have access to information about whats happening on the ground and now i think that its obviously important to balance what is obvious the reporting around a phrase scary situation with also managing the emotions audiences who are already i think in many cases finding this a baby from medics times goes through. I think that she dish no media have billy stepped up next coverage of the pandemic under extremely challenging circumstances and this i think is particularly important because weve seen this as a 1st kind of social media can date where this information from a variety of different sources being shared circulated and social media and that information may not be as reliable as information that audiences get from more traditional established media organizations karen lee said a moment ago and the traditional media have really stepped up to the play during this paradigm and what makes you believe thats the case can you give some examples of that ive been following this coverage for some time ever since the outbreak started in china and i think initially we did see a lot of fairly fear inducing and scary coverage in the Mainstream Media i think that what were seeing now is that the condemn it has become this all consuming events that affects all of us and i think all sectors of society and when i say then media has stepped up what i mean is steps should ishall newspapers and broadcasters gleacher trying the best they can to provide. The lively information under the 6 unit challenging circumstances that is not to say that i think that the media are always getting it right. And its also not to say that. This coverage is always the to be assuring fact a lot of it is quite scary. But i think that the media do have a say the role to play now im sure you teach your students as i was taught them i j school that the task of journalists is to be a governments watchdog meaning that they have to be not just critical but employing Critical Thinking in analyzing Government Policies and when it comes to the log data there is a heated debate among scientists appall imo if you give me all a just on the advocacy of the quarantine measures in downing the pandemic there are many process and cons to it and yet if we look at the media especially the traditional media they are almost uniformly indorsing the quarantine measures as are the governments why do you think there is so middle questioning of that rationale in the traditional media. So i think that what were seeing in the context of this and to make is that the reporting of science has probably become more important now than it ever has before and i think that. The media are reporting that debates around the consequences of the lock down obviously theyre also they much driven in their reporting by statements made by government officials for example who changes be the ones who set the agenda and here its obviously extremely important to just kind of position to hold the politicians accountable for their actions. So in a sense i would say that scientists have become. Stars of the show and they have become important sources well information innocent to me but its out isnt that always the case of journalists have been strained specifically on how the court and science and absoluteness says that cases may be able to remain scientists have well since you mentioned scientists ask open to a number of if you can we all exist in recent weeks and many of them are convinced that the current response to call that 19 is no longer within the reality of the reality its its it and i dont logical and political issue more than anything else the politicians need to be seen as sparing no resources to save lives which is good the problem is that theyre at back to me prioritizing the lives of corbett 9000 patients. All rare other lives there is a a rise in the heart attacks when all of that from a lack of surgeries have been postponed when many victims of the spend democrat who have nothing to do recall with 99 percent of their suffering none the less and i know that many doctors aches. To me unconscious the bowl with this kind of tree asking because this is ultimately a tree i asked problem who does the state decide to prioritize and yet there is very little discussion of it within the Larger Society of whether we are going to you know assign a 2nd degree priority to lets say Heart Patients as opposed to call that 19 patients who gad their very 1st priority treatment right now. Well i think obviously this is a tremendously challenging and difficult situation and i think that we do see that reflected in the coverage and i think weve also seen a kind of shift both in terms of public debate and in terms of Public Opinion over time because i think that initially there was extremely widespread support for quite extreme not only measures now obviously does a certain level of that seek setting in the present world and also an increased concern around speak Central Economic culture so having done a small new study of todays cut which we can see that coverage of the financial crisis quite says. That i think freezingly prominent Media Coverage that at this point i think we can to prevent a fast the potential consequences. Of the introduced majerus and bob as they keep piling up the easy thing being Mainstream Media that traditional media will be just as aligned with state policies on common 1000 as they are by and large the coverage is whether it is that russia in the u. K. And the United States missed some rare exceptions is a more or less in favor all the of the matter is introduced by the government do you think this will remain the case as this means turn sour region they certainly will at least on the economic front. Well i think that what we seeing now is a sort of classic. Kind of element in terms of the Media Coverage where initially there was a great deal of consensus around its decision to. Completely know that. Becoming politicized and becoming scrutinized also by opposition politicians around the world we are seeing more criticisms of political steps being taken and also more consideration of consequences so this is something that ive looked at in different colors explains this in denmark where originally from and where the opening up of society has happened sooner than elsewhere we have seen a shift from overwhelming support for the actions of the danish Prime Minister to really end up. In a quite significant way and now were then beginning to see a lot of questioning of the specific ways in which science is being opened up and i think well see just. Around the world what bugs me the most is that nobody has really asked and nobody has actually clearly explained whether we need those low downs in the 1st place because. You know you would understand that from. Just tickle point of view definitely the governments need at some time you know to create create that extra bad capacity to build new medical facilities to train the doctors but locking people from monza now and you know its a its a very questionable decision from an if youre a logical point of view i mean its not going to exactly clear that thats going to prevent them from the virus because they back sure are they will encounter it. Sooner or later and when they encounter they will need that have you know bathroom unity that bath metabolism each death and you do not improve when you see it at home with you know the phrase the tally and the cow and it almost seems that the bigger the mom monumental decision that you were a questions are being out. Yeah i mean he said well its really really interesting and fun transcendental the moment oh Media Coverage an up to date because weve simply never faced a crisis up this kind within the lifetime most people around the world and so i think that from the beginning theres been a sense so you know oh what was it that just hit us and what are we going to do about it we dont know what were going to do about it the only thing that we know works in this situation is a form of or unseen well we actually dont know that for a fact but its still hardly debated by i think we all are just wired there for a long long down to really decrease lethality. From this virus and im sure youre hearing about the example of sweden which decided and gas that introducing a quarantine precisely for those reasons that they are not sure why in thousands work. In any case those are very top ethical dilemmas for very hard choices lets take a sure thing rask wrong down for now but well be back in just a few moments stay tuned. Thats right here a high art is the Ticker Symbol for harris a close down behind and you can find all of the hair. That we feature here on this episode of kaiser importance currently trading at a market cap of about 3900000000. 00 but were expecting the fed to come in and front run the market and take us up to a much higher capitalization possibly 7 or 9 trillion dollars. Thank you. Thank you thank. You welcome back to worlds apart carol and your good friend director of Research Development and environment and the hardest school of journalism and media culture cat karen just michelin to break he suggested. This corona Virus Outbreak is defectors outbreak of its kind to take place in a hybrid media environment where traditional media craigslist with social media and im not sure i agree with your dad because i covered wars and libya and in syria and not only the media environment was very much alike but also built lines of covers the kind of stories journalists were filing were very similar i mean in a war zone there are 2 main kinds of stories the front lines and the victims and the emotional personal stories and i see the same thing with the coverage of corporate 19 year how they they hospitals and the doctors and the victims of this pandemic dont you think that there is something to that its not only the politicians but also the journalists who are prone to cheating this pandemic flu a paradigm of akong like. Well i think that we do see metaphors of war being used being widely in terms of talking about the coronavirus so its like a sort of scary invisible enemy that comes to attack us and weve got frontlines in the hospitals and care homes where the doctors and nurses are at the equivalent so so just so in some ways you can see a lot of parallels in terms of looking at the condemn it hasnt were so its a metaphor thats not without its problems but i guess is also they. May tend to people made a point terms this idea that all the citizens of a country have to Work Together to defeat this invisible enemy and i think thats a kind of political underpinnings of dont buy states use that metaphor well you call it political i call it a wartime propaganda because. Just as you cannot see and appreciate the damage the full damage of the war and the frontlines to the same extend emergency wards are not the only snapshots of the pandemic and as i mentioned before the lockdown has its own victims there are people who have. Other Health Conditions there people who lost their livelihoods there are people whose mental how who was compromised children are suffering there is a rise in Domestic Airlines around the world and there are many many other consequences dont you think that it is perhaps manipulative or increased distorting cupra trade this been demick primarily from the hospitals and government briefings well i think that 11 of the one of the issues here is obviously you dont where this using medical staff. As a means. Or heroes in this situation and in a sense that is important because its accurate that theyre facing great risks and dangers but i have to say time is also true that we are seeing and not about the people who put themselves in harms way whether its people who are in supermarkets or who drive buses or create our rubbish there are also many ordinary people who. I think to integrate the consequences of the condemning so milly if we reduce it to. China the case out of hospital warrants now were obviously failing to see the Bigger Picture the message consequences of this and then it is heading across the whole of society and around the whole wilks now in your book and multiple media and politics meeting i highly recommend to all our viewers its a very interesting read you make an important distinction between an emotion and immediate emotion but the latter being far more deliberate calculated and constructive and when it comes to the comment 19 outbreak or any other large scale event journalist always have a wide wide choice in which emotion to transmit which emotion to put forth reaching or to communicate to their audience and which perhaps to downplay what do you see as the dominant sentiments are they spend democrat you already mentioned the gratitude the very genuine and sure gratitude that really feel towards the doctors and other product line workers spread are there any other emotions that are prevalent in the coverage of this pandemic what i see in the Media Coverage is that fear is actually the dominant emotion now and thats not all that surprising in the same speaker. Were dealing with this unknown and scary disease and theyre condemning this hand and a series of they find me consequences from all of us but whats interesting to sink about is a next steps here like other emotions can be just as contagious as the disease itself and when we see something scary and when we speak about scary things we can also be sharing and spending that fear in relation to other people while we are on the subject of p. R. Let me play the devils advocate for a while because i heard a number of doctors and Public Officials sensually the jazz that people need to be saved from themselves the most the fact you wait you can do that under the pressure of circumstances is their fear because if you scare them enough with the footage of emergency wards are the footage of the salmon trees or the morris perhaps they will think twice about taking their family out. For a barbecue and thats not totally lord of commonsense because you know their courage is a really struggling right now i dont want to minimize the the scale of the challenge that theyre facing and i think we need to give them credit for what theyre doing but do you think the use of fear is justified as a scare tactic as a social control tactic when its for peoples own sake. I think that we have seen an emphasis on fearing the coverage but also in terms. Of how governments have communicated and. Because like you say. Here in a sense this and helpful emotion in terms of making people change their behavior so it is important for politicians to communicate that this is a dangerous disease. And that therefore its important in the interests of the collective good for people to stay inside stay at home and sue obey social distancing guidelines and then at the same time i think that its important to balance the communication of scaredy message just with a concern for the Mental Health and well being of the people who are actually consuming media consent karen i think we would both agree that the media organizations have a long curated why the emotions out of what information that our audiences are exposed to but i think it has never been. So open now speaking about the fact that both google and you tube both prioritized the World Health Organization as diesel or isnt called at 19 even though the rapid taishan of those who are going to zation is quite questionable in medical circles its in vice on how to proceed with regards to this pandemic has been pretty inconsistent and there are many legitimate crashes about you know w h os professionalism in these circumstances i mean were not Public Health experts so lets not talk about w. H. Y. What i want to ask you about is how do you feel about the big Tax Companies not already needing the debate but actually setting the. Crimes of it and pointing to who is a reliable source on this issue and who is not. Why i would slightly take issue with your description of the w. H. O. I mean i think that this is been a bait challenging crisis for your is a shame to handle and they havent always done this in a. Manner that any missteps and only way but nonetheless i think that they can be you didnt you consider every libel and authoritative source on this subject and i think that social media organizations. Have tried to make some a difficult decisions in the face of. This monster not false inec true misleading information thats been circulated and also base conspiracy theories so now i think becks and in in the u. K. For example if you look at Twitter Twitter will take you to the department of health and social care websites and that is simply because a potentially damaging misinformation circulating both in misinformation which this sort of. Downright dangerous so says some of it comes from so i suspect donald trump suggesting that people shouldnt take themselves with disinfectant speaking about misinformation here is another example from the United States just a few weeks ago mutes you tube down a briefing by certified california doctors questioning be need who are strict law down majerus w