You can find more information about both of those verifications on our website and you tube channel but one irony our guest identifies in his new book is that britain was once the envy of the world when it came to handling epidemics Contact Tracing was pioneered against cholera in londons soho area and so what can we learn from past pandemics how they transform the world professor Frank Snowdon author of epidemics and society from the black death to the present joins me now via skype from rome in this early frank welcome to going underground before we get to the book which i think is being read by more and more people than maybe you even expected tell me about how you contract it coded in rome and why youve dedicated your life way before coronavirus to the study of pandemics and epidemics yes one devoted so many years to pandemic diseases because it seems to me there are a wonderful way forward. Understanding how societies function and their put together their values the relationships between people their Economic Systems that is to say i think that there are sort of like a Looking Glass in which society can see itself plus ive become increasingly aware that epidemic diseases have really substantially transformed societies and are part of the major picture of how societies are who volved and have a decisive impact in that so theyre also extremely important as were learning now with cove at 19 i was living in rome the virus broke out and i called that fortunately i had a very mild case that because arguably here is now a epicenter here in london to just say that it wouldnt surprise you that pandemics linked to capitalism in its destruction of forests say you talk in the book of the laws of the marketplace negative externalities at the end of the book actually yes indeed what youre saying i think is vital to understand whats happening that is to say we have a model of industrial growth that is rapaciousness and pays no attention to extra knowledge is as you say as we progress of leader story animal habitat were bringing animals and human beings into contact with each other in ways that never happened or sold them out and in the past that is now with increasing frequency and its not surprising then that we have. Ever greater number of spillover events in which diseases that is viruses in particular are transferred minted crossed the species barrier between out of wild animals and human being. And anyone reading your book would also not be surprised by the fact that today government say in nato countries are saying that the economic pandemic as it were will kill more than the coronavirus pandemic just tell me how in your book you show epidemics completely transform countries from the haitian revolution to the 812 french invasion of russia the Louisiana Purchase that created the modern United States as we know it we should expect political transformation from epidemics we should absolutely this goes back to the very earliest of. Demick pandemic diseases one can even go back to the playground thems everything about it and was transformed 1st geopolitically athens army is devastated and loses the war to sparta and sparta then becomes the hedge in modern power are rather than out and with in the classic war and we also hear from 2 cities that democracy is destroyed we hear out and something that sounds very familiar had long been a welcoming place for immigrants known as medics are but during the results of this pandemic things beat we see a surge of xenophobia and the great democratic leader paraplegia darrens of the disease i should say that anyone tuning in actually greece has performed very well come comparably than coronavirus terms but you mentioned para clis supposedly the u. K. Prime minister morris johnsons hero does it make you smile when you hear the especially warlike rhetoric about coronavirus employed by Bharath Johnson and donald trump of course now as the us in circles china with bases do you see parallels there as of the rhetoric really ramps up now about china. Being responsible as it were for the coronavirus pandemic to suit parallels in the scapegoating and blaming been very a red line linking these Events People were blaming immigrants and afternoons this we were just talking about and we see during hiv aids that homosexuals were blamed and one is shocked but not surprised to see the blame china and here and its ministrations saying officially that its the chinese disease the womb han disease and so thats i think a very unfortunate and very anti Public Health measure well arguably of course the w. H. O. Has fewer and fewer resources now the United States apparently have peers to be pulling back funding for it but you do say that we must understand the virus itself that the disease is not random and that it virus like corona virus is selective and exploits what humans create rather nationalities i should absolutely i would argue that diseases are known for its societies that create the power of ways by which diseases reach them and i would call this the 1st rate disease of globalisation and so no its not by chance that virologists have been saying for quarter of a century now that a pulmonary pandemic is in there to ball as part of our future and now weve seen that its actually arrived many people by know that cull mox predicted monopoly capitalism arguably but youre writing about how our Economic System is created the fault lines upon which. And tb or cholera travel you think theres something we can learn from marx prefiguring this too well. Marx was not thinking about disease on the other hand his description of a repair shows industrialization process on a global scale are rings true enough and i do believe that this virus is demonstrating something he would have understood which is the tendency of the disease to exploit the fault lines of poverty and disadvantage and we can see that that is precisely what coke at 19 is doing it is a disease if you look at a city like new york city that the its the poor and the United States poverty is inflected with ethnicity and so its ethnic minorities have double and triple the rates of death from coke at 19 and then internationally we see that now covert 19 is ramping up to become a great disease of the global south its impossible to practice our means of defense in the industrial north or social distancing and washing your hands if you live in. In the shores of mumbai these tournaments that are densely packed with 10 People Living in a room a social distancing is meaningless and hygiene is impossible in an environment in which so often and wonder are actually have to be purchased on a daily basis and are not freely accessible when youve been studying all these epidemics from time immemorial does it surprise you that elites dont seem to comprehend that they are only as strong as the most vulnerable time and time and time again i mean why is it that the mistakes are made repeatedly throughout the book by elites this is one of the distressing aspects of our past isnt it is. It seems people very quickly for one thing have amnesia after there is a sudden flurry of thinking about these events soon after theyve happened and also theres been a more sinister aspect which is this sense that the bar poor are actually guilty. Theres been a terrible tension between social classes particularly with those diseases that preferentially attack the disadvantage and so the blame game begins on a rich magnified level and we see this in the tensions this may be one of the factors that made the bloody repression of the not and the 19th century event such as the repression of the revolutions of 848. 00 tonight and the Paris Commune were in part i think the violence was magnified by the a sense of elites that the disease was the fault of what they called the dangerous classes and one can see this in covert 19 in the United States at the moment were of the far right of Rural America in the n. T. Lockdown protests was flaming places like new york city and the poor. And i was with the hoping to withhold sort of payments of social Network Benefits from places that they regarded as underserved playing and dangerous im not far from a so in london here do you think its ironic that i mean some estimates show britain being perhaps the worst in death numbers or excess deaths at the running averages in the world and you talk in the book famously of john snow under 50 years ago pioneering Contact Tracing and yet britain one of its words that actions here was to stop all Contact Tracing with entire. Really agree with that as a desperately sad irony britain not only did pioneer Contract Tracing but it also was the home of the Sanitary Movement in the 19th century with remarkable on making cities safe and hygiene ect so its terribly ironic that britain should be in one of the worlds leaders and thats partly because it not because its unhygienic but because it failed to be prepared and failed to follow the dictates of science which said that we have just a couple of weapons for dealing defending ourselves from this disease and social distancing and testing and Contact Tracing are the only weapons we have and so it was remarkable that britain and the United States were partners and also brazil in not being willing at the outbreak of this epidemic to put those practices into effect to protect the society well the books out now epidemics in society probably sales figures higher than your wildest expectations professor franks didnt thank you thank you so much has been a pleasure after the break as coronavirus likes worldwide Domestic Violence the un special rapporteur dubrovnik a similar of it john barths on the britain one of the countries like that to be a put is russia not to ratify a groundbreaking convention on violence against women plus indias socalled communist coronavirus level parallel population 35000000. 00 deaths fewer than 50. 00 or more coming over via 2 of going underground. Is the United States hell bent on self destruction and them if the dramatic economic turndown and then our massive civil. Rest on point to get my goodness to the point of also targeting our car watching the liberal or species playbook in our. Welcome back in the 1st hour of the program we discussed the conservative liberal austerity that arguably facilitated the u. K. Having the highest rate of deaths from coronavirus among countries that produce comparable data maybe but how has that austerity exacerbated the crisis for those at risk of Domestic Violence joining me now as governors are grabbing traitors the u. N. Repertoire on violence against women its causes and consequences to braga some of it thank you so much to the ruckus out of the coronavirus lockdowns in the main effect of violence against women thank you very much for inviting me during her career and i look down now it is clear that whom is not safe place and during global downs we mean and children are confined in different places that could be places of domestic weiland serve even Family Services and there is problem with services that are needed to prevent such cases a while and in such situations hole is not a safe place so there are now all situations something crease just remain and the government should be aware that they need to provide their for different measures that are needed to prevent such even during because wed like to bounce now heres the expected to say that as a un special rapporteur but i understand you believe that cove id is illuminating preexisting conditions in societies that especially with respect to Domestic Violence against women youre right because there are preexisting inequalities in shortcoming send forms of gender based violence that. His wife spread in different parts of the world there are Different Levels of violence and there are Different Services available or not available even before the court so for example in some stays there are no shelters but in states where there are shelters we have to see if shelters are only libelled then for example protection orders hotline schell clients different types of for Police Interventions they should be open and accessible is essential so we have to really call all governments all around the world tool or look into prevention measures to see which type of player helplines could be available source sometimes it is even s. M. S. Messages differently the types of floor messages that could be sent to all Grocery Stores or or pharmacies are signaling the Domestic Violence and so on and so there are there are good examples there giving a vision can i just talk about the core centers because britain is one of the last countries to ratify the 2012 Istanbul Convention i mean what would you say to countries that say they couldnt afford it here in britain we had to bail out the city of london in 20008 came under some criticism from your then colleague un special rapporteur on poverty and thats why britain could not adhere to the convention of requirements for 24 hour help lines that alone the plight of Migrant Women is that by convention is providing girl eagerly binding standards in area of preventing domestic role in central and 2nd stream in the same level of standards serve we also have in United NationNations Convention on diminish an a for forms of discrimination against women there are more general but through our soft leuchter pretty chanelled. Convention basically those requirements that are in the symbol convention are also to global level in c. The convention sold those states that are not seeing possibility now like u. K. Orders from our council of europe or region to ratify the symbol convention they should be aware that they have those obligations also under United Nations see the convention and the correlation and elimination of while and 2nd suman we should be aware that are you know cases of domestic current context family sites are done by intimate partners are done by family members there right there is served increased risk for women in such a tree and when we look at data from the naked nations. Un r. D. C. Agency a whale a bowler its their website we can see their turn out of 10 persons killed in the context of intimate Partner Violence more than 80 percent are women and as United Nations special report on my aunts against women i should call all states to establish a family said watch ok weve ever just very quickly though if the obligations are there anyway under the u. N. Charters or resolutions then you can understand why britain or russia russia has not rather 5 the convention you can feel dont want to maybe because of the obligations of their area what the point of is they will go over to obligations clearly expressed in the Summer Convention because theyre very specific and theyre showing what are those legally binding norms they should be included International Legislation so are there are more precise soul for that reason countries are seeing them in a more legally binding manner that is really spelling and our education but in the long grants all those states that are not yet able to react if a simple convention they will do it because there are. Theyre currently also using some buyouts of those standards in order to improve down issue legislation so the point is that each symbol convention is you know a as a legally binding stronger it is charmed or implementation the mechanisms server and monitoring mechanisms there are Different Levels of morning touring that are really showing back at the National Level what i have gaps and what the governments are not doing in line with International Law the u. K. Is either 49 percent apparent increase in helpline calls a drink over it spain 30. 7 percent and reported cases in russia doubling under the lockdown i just want to finally in the time we have are about what youre hearing from palestine because i understand your one of the 1st rapporteurs to visit palestine in 2016 after a long absence of un rapporteurs britain sending record amounts of arms to israel what are you hearing about the effect of Domestic Violence from kovi of invalid respect to all states since we are also under a log announces a special report not able to travel i am receiving information so also sure well my sources so i can also include it on my website all for all stakeholders whats been states nongovernmental organisations in the bent institutions to send me information about trouble and related still violence against women during the current 19 pandemic so now i am receiving a lot of informations and we are so much in the middle so its not easy to assess for example they tell you is not truly comparable the same is solved palestine israel and all of the states and when i resisted the state of palestine and israel i here we commended collection for example of family say they and eve duelled also inclusion of genocide watch analysis of cases in order to see how to prevent such cases and if. But in general it is a problem the data because many steves will not collect as many city of the town different forms of violence against women and we have to all are now law in direction of really connecting the towie to laws and policies and government responsibility is to act and to prevent so while incidence to men and girls you have special operator thank you thank yo