Robertson and time for Business Owners in the u. K. To relocate to the e. U. And how will the u. K. Leverage coronavirus for brics it with exactly 5 months until Boris Johnsons version of bricks of dragons den star and businesswoman Deborah Meade and tells us why britain should have never said. It to the Worlds Largest trading bloc paulism or coming up in this a lockdown edition yet again of going underground but joining me now from london via skype is Geoffrey Robertson q. C. One of the worlds greatest human rights barristers cofounder of doubt he street one of his colleagues recently in the news with amber heard is she was brought in as a witness in support of Rupert Murdoch against johnny depp but jeffrey 1st of all lets get to juliette as arms because while the worlds media was talking about amber heard arguably the future of Free Speech Free expression of free press was being decided yet again in a london courtroom what do you make of the United States trying to have a new indictments against Julian Assange are we. Trying to crush Julian Assange it or to do damage. Whistle blow the future. Im talking to journalists thats the object and theyre doing to some extent quite well they want him in prison for 175 years the charges they greeks are we can we can tell how many years hell get because his. Source kills the manning got 35 years before she will part by president obama so i think during those arent if he does get extradited well get 50 years and he wont get our by president truck thats for sure but why would have turned into a lovely healing spell why would they suddenly at this late stage and we have neals melter he youre un special rapporteur on things being tortured here in britain why this late stage would wait maybe trying to change the indictments against a sanch maybe even stopping the old ones are trying to cane it theyre trying to add to it over to a broad conspiracy charge going back to his days as a juvenile hacker in australia all the people literally persons unknown is the phrase theyre using to me encourage to send him secret set with the leaks and of course in those days weekly kes was rather good because it exposed the courage of scientology to be exposed corruption it did a lot of good things where back in his early days which now the americans are trying to turn into a vast conspiracy this may be because they feel the case isnt Strong Enough to be evidence of persecution is pretty strong because its been shown that hes and his. His hideaway in the ecuadorian d embassy was bugged by the americans that they had intercepted contant was a subject of a spanish case because of course he felt cia has not admitted to mugging conversations with you i understand jeffrey having been following that case so it was a case of its a breach of european law its the sautter thing that caused the pentagon papers case to be derailed because they bugged and stole stuff from the Sources Office so it is the kind of evidence coming out that they may not like there was a suggestion that the white house wanted it to be postponed until after the elections because some evidence was going to come out about how overtures were made on behalf of the Republican Campaign to wiki leaks and there was evidence by his fiance who said that one of the guards on behalf. And tried to get her babys nappy so they could analyze the poo in order to see whether a sound was a power but theres a lot of clue in the courts person that the moment and more importantly as far as the press were concerned it was he left it on johnny depps bed so im afraid that was what the media was interested in what you have said to you successfully and you youve successfully overturned so many wrongful convictions here you presumably are not going to be called a witness to the Spanish Court were bound to the laws on is trying to complain or at least to sort out whether the cia link company you see global were bugging you yourself in the Ecuadorian Embassy can you remember any of your cases where a cia link company was. Abusing client lawyer privilege none that i know of that i wouldnt necessarily know but there is julian a sartre journalist lettuce and publisher who is locked up in coakley dangerous in belmarsh and he can only talk to his lawyers now after 10 minutes telephone calls for 10 minutes and its difficult to prepare a case he could have been let out on bail under a kind of house arrest or mansion arrest in the country where alec chronic shackles would prevent him from leaving but at least hed be able to prepare his case with concentration that did not appeal so hes looking at the barrel of a gun which will provide him with life imprisonment to die in an american supermax it might come by air when the americans have their way and i think it is as american as american journalists are now realizing it is correct to freedom of speech because the argument from white house is putting forward is that he doesnt deserve the 1st amendment because hes not an american in australia and that it doesnt apply to any journalist working for american papers you you were retained by Julian Assange and youve defended him so is Jennifer Robinson amber heard lawyer thats why she says she was in the news so is a mark looney the Guardian Newspaper which partnered up with wiki leaks printed an article in the past few days as this hearing was being discussed in london and the earlier britain an article saying hes basically a russian asset. He has a russian asset and defacto as a menu yes. Self when defending a russian as a not a journalist at all i didnt see that article that stebbins i suppose from the American News about wiki leaks publishing stuff that they may have obtained from russian sources from Russian Hackers but youve got to remember wiki leaks had the idea or publishing anything of Public Interest and that what they published about the Democratic National committee to show that there was a lot of jiggery poker e caring ought to stop Bernie Sanders getting the nomination and 5 members of that committee had to resign but people are realizing that perhaps if the cia had secretly slipped him some information about mr putin and his wealth or his involvement in assassination in britain then he would have had the integrity to publish classes well when we hear and we dont know because he published collateral murder which was evidence of certainly in wrights crime the killing of journalists it was really a case of burial manslaughter i suppose so so thats not nothing never been tried in that way the d. N. C. Meanwhile joe biden the president ial contender said and then when he mixes as almost an enemy combatant seem to reflect pompei own no reflection of the resignation of you mentioned high tech terrorists who were in finance or going to the russia report because even though no evidence was found by the russian or border by the intelligence and Security Committee here the recommendations were that we may need american style espionage act which is under which no one has been cross canada dentistry. Isnt eric freeze the prison Gunpowder Creek prevision and prot is the object now but it would cause we havent had much luck with treason prosecutions we allowed him philby to escape we allowed blood to continue selecting the queens. So theres been a reluctance to use the earth in 81. 00 treason act ad i think it would be a great mistake to update it it should be abolished because its one of these vague laws about and compassing the overthrow of the monarch and i think to use it against people who have. Assisted particular russian list would be wrong a much better idea frankly is to have a register foreign interests so that those who act for foreign governments must come clean about it and tend to see what will that mean for me say because i think the same and they stand by the russian duma the b. B. C. Obviously likewise mandated by the British Parliament to broadcast overseas does that mean the registering of fan foreign journalists im one of them even bankers actually bankers who work say for h. S. B. C. Or a company in the city of london well i think this is reasonable but of course the problem with reduced ration of as a foreign interest is shown in russia or in singapore where theyve forced Amnesty International and other human Rights Groups to register and then create all kinds of bureaucratic problems so youve got a box these laws and there is a good law thats been suggested incredibly you can donate more than 10000 pounds to a British Political Party without any money lower. During scrutiny so this is quite serious people are upset because Russian Oligarchs wives naik hundreds of thousands in return for a tennis match with power strong soon and its clear that money that comes to any Political Party from abroad should be able to able 10000. 00 pounds should be subject to Money Laundering routes and at the moment its not so i think thats 1. 00 valuable law that will come from the russia report which didnt find any russian interference in brady said but said that was because m i 5 wasnt looking well obviously the toys say all that Russian Oligarch money the entirely innocent donation to the tory party i just want to quickly just ask you about the epstein case because we had someone on he said that. Jeffrey epstein was working for the israelis the Israeli Government denied it and now the lane maxwell finds herself on remand in a brooklyn prison how safe is shane here in that her friend that seeing died in a new york prison well it is interesting because it may seem quixotic givens theres so much injustice in the world or to care about injustice give a max well but you know you judge a system of law by how it treats its most unprepossessing people and the combo im with american law or in these high profile cases is that theres no contempt of court or as we have in britain so theres massive judgement its as if shes presumed guilty and the judge her so said is wrong ever so gets trapped and allowed and i find this astonishing allowed 3 or 6. To oppose but you just say shes almost shes associate. Hes a reporter and this is because america has no who who designed to protect the prize. As a result there is a massive. Against and of course weve seen in a number of american trials pretty quickly to seeing that your. Produce a wrong good will she denies all the charges all wrongdoing every row its accusing thank you very much after the break does u. K. Prime minister Boris Johnson stand a chance when he is negotiate his end of the dragons den of the Worlds Largest trading bloc we ask t. V. Star and business mogul deborah meeting its time for u. K. Business to leave the country paulism all coming over by doing going underground. The sudden and illegal takeover of a government by a small group. Rather than revolutionaries all soldiers thats a small group the operation when you have a tiny people who have all the power you have to have some means to make sure the rest of us dont get together and. These are sacrificed. Places that capitalism exploited and destroyed for profit and left behind misery poverty environmental devastation and so you see things like Voter Suppression building more prisons you seem gerrymander all sorts of. Pratik practices are well in that world were well into the world and theres no question that the critical. To what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy confrontation let it be an arms race is on offer and spearing Dramatic Development only really im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. Welcome back to this lockdown edition of going underground joining me now from somerset in england is dragons den business mogul debra median and the reason there were so you on the show is really to explain there was what is in store for Small Businesses now were hearing from britains e uni goshi to david frost that basically the e. U. Has to accept the deal on the table what will it mean for as so many businesses in this country well its not enough that weve been living in sort of limbo land not really understanding what that answer. Was also as you know which is a pretty rough anyway. But i think it is very worrying indeed the businesses that probably have a huge say you know and yes and we know theres a lot of just in time so. Probably going to like cash employed in their businesses and not sitting with this great lump of money at the 1st hour that theyre looking people wasnt thinking i dont know what ive got to do ive got a government telling me prepare but i dont want to carry all the phrases actually to prepare for all possible outcomes do so through in the corridor was a white all they respect to all Business People so why should they think that they do. Anyway on a regular basis therefore they dont have a problem with the uncertainty of brotherly the issue for me with all possible ask comes is that takes money you know actually its madness you know its crazy you look at a business you think about whats the most likely outcome and you prepare for it but the most likely outcome you look around you take account of all of the factors if you think my justin says this is probably the things that happen there is such scant information there is such a muddled horizon that i dont know this is me who spends my life cutting through issues a cent that doesnt matter but doesnt it doesnt matter if i dont know how we were kants what is the most likely scenario as sussan we dont have a lot of sitting around you know what chappell owed money then and there its yes interesting the government themselves and the reason that they didnt have enough and nighters is that it would have been a wrong decision to put a load of cash into a load event ventilators just in case theyre asking businesses to put a lot of cash into them into what will probably be socially relevant projects that is just not joined up. Oil more disturbing arguably if you believe the sources that are talking to the Financial Times was this report that the people in white always saying they could use covert to mosque the economic negative consequences of a no deal brokered and at the end of the year presumably Big Government would say that definitely is not the case do you think that could be the case and there are people thinking like well if it is the case its a pretty ugly mindset you know. And that really is what we should be spending our time Walking Around the halls of whitehall talking we should be talk about how we get ourselves as it is dont be very difficult to distinguish whats happened and the edge of what has happened because brets it and it might be helped hold the governments that would probably have struggled with a with a very difficult scenario. And i do think it will let people off the hook you know and i dont like letting the i think people make decisions about their i i agree with them i dont agree with them i hope they get them right get them right well done if they dont get them right then they they should be held responsible for it and i think them there could be an element of why wouldnt they. Well theyre saying theyre trying their best to learn how many request you are getting for Venture Capital how many Business Plans are being sent at the moment but i mean how do you think people fear when the bank of england bails out Ryanair Easyjet 600000000. 00 b. A. 600000000. 30 well confirmed the 260000000. 00 greggs 150600000000. 00 i know they have very money for as amys life support but what do you think theyre thinking when the Biggest Companies in the country seem to have got so much money from the bank of england in tow the loan facilities well i am just a facet of this until his lesson is but the truth of the matter is that theyre very happy companies that they have jobs and theyre betting at an area that tax revenues are economic stability even if were not adding anything at price so i dont have an issue with looking at a business what fundamentally survive beyond this as opposed it for i say that while there is a big business or whether its a Small Business we should not support industries that are fundamentally a problem because you know thats just the money out of badger we should be spending that money looking at new industries in the new shape so so you know i dont say worry about the fact that were saving jobs for people and were trying to stabilize an army i dont i think thats a good way to spend the money and i think in the early days i was pretty comments about whether sportiness unease because they had moved quickly they made promises quite quickly and they actually delivered the task but as weve gone they felt clunky they havent looked at individual industries in a i think a particularly indepth way what they should be doing is worth in the trade associations in dealing not just with industries as a whole you cant talk about Hospitality Industry money in the halls or all is a part you know. But look at each section that industry and understand what it needs to support and i think a bit disappointed about the target is now tha