Understood we see the crash having made it worse the growth of the wealthy at the very top having outstripped everything we could have imagined at the same time that now over 60000000 americans have had to file for one or another kind of state or federal Unemployment Compensation assistance this is a system that is still going out of control in terms of extremes of wealth inequality and income inequality and theres nothing on the horizon that suggests that thats going to change and so i think that is becoming a permanent quality of this economy and is a society that used to in the 20th century pretend that it was a vast middle class that capitalism was a tide that lifted all boats i dont think this is politically already a logically sustainable. Peter the same question to you because if we look at the Consumption Patterns of the top 10 percent during the worst of the pin demick the lock down their consumption went down Something Like 15 percent but the class that serves them their income went down more than 30 percent thats according to some reports here so i me and we do know that the job base those stories in the billionaire stories how theyve really done well out of all of this year is that is that a kin to a kate recovery because we do have this growing and maybe permanent underclass go ahead you are well you know i dont even care what letter you want to try to use to describe it my problem is with the word recovery because i dont think weve recovered at all sure there has been a recovery in the stock market in that the market recovered what it lost in the early days of coded and yes i mean this recession that were currently in began with a very substantial collapse and yes theres been a bit of a bounce off of that collapse but were still in a recession and so i dont know if recovering to being in a less severe recession then we were in at one point really qualifies as a recovery and i dont think weve seen the lows i think were going to relapsed i think were actually going to go down and theres a good chance that the stock market might make new lows as well but regardless of what happens with that bubble in the short run the reality is that main streets pain has actually been wall street again its precisely because the economy remains so weak and whats really at the root cause of the weakness is not capitalism its the failure to have capitalism its the Federal Reserve that is monetizing massive government debts that are only inflating asset bubbles but at the same time it is depriving the real economy of the. Or so that it actually needs to grow and build a Real Recovery that would in fact lift all boats instead were settling for a fake recovery because thats the easiest one to create because in order to have a Real Recovery were going to have to have some short term pain in order to make that possible because what has to recover is not consumption but production we need more savings we need more Capital Investment and to and to enable lat we actually need higher Interest Rates not lower Interest Rates and we need a Smaller Government not a larger government so everything that we have done since the pandemic began is actually weakening the economy and were compound ing all of the stakes that we made before the pandemic if you remember we were already slipping along before anybody heard of covert 19 and 4th quarter 2018 thats when the wheels started coming off the bus thats when the fed did the about face and started cutting rates thats when they really started to move from quantitative tightening back a quantitative easing now in march of 2020 right those trends excel aerated we went right back to 0 and we went we skipped q e 4 and went right to q e infinity but all these policies are simply blowing more air into a big bubble analysts same time theyre depriving the real economy of the air that it needs to grow if it if i go back to reagan all of these mistakes and i think simply agree with much much when you present but much of those mistakes have benefited the same people the richest people that weve ever known in the history of humanity those mistakes ok yes i agree you know what a lot of assets we agree we agree but im to focus you know richard here is that but because these mistakes have benefited these people why should they do anything about it i mean they made out i mean theres no and let me go to richard theres no yes. These mistakes. I think the use of the word mistake and it always amazes me. Its a mistake over and over again year after year peter is quite right i agree but these mistakes being systematic the repeated over and over again are not dealt with adequately by suggesting that if only those mistakes werent made we would have some nice functioning capitalism that would look again lift all boats it seems to me that the people at the top have figured out that if and when they can they can make more money if that drowns the economy and in that downturn they can turn back to their advantage as well using Monetary Policy to insulate the stocks upon which the bulk of their wealth depends this is a mis statement so often repeated that the word mistake starts to lose its meaning this is the way capitalism slayers out it might be nice to imagine that it would function some other way but thats a utopian imagery of a stateless capitalism that probably never existed but in the last 100 years smar sure has disappeared as this state has become a major lender so the growth and concentration of wealth with or without the merger is between the state and the biggest chap in the lists which is happening more and more as we see i think this is the real capitalism we have to live with and not the imaginary one that peter likes to suggest we see i read it i mean the middle im in the middle of a big bowl of between being and when you said you agree with peter i think you agree with both peter and here were going to go to the other peter here mycenae what you used the word count was many get that you know i think its very problematic because it doesnt seem to be benefiting the whole lot of people because they know none the less here i would agree with peter our guest here in the sense that im tired of socialism. For the very very rich and then everybody else gets the crumbs in the countless the economy go ahead well 1st of all dont confuse what america has now with capitalism i mean whats left of capitalism have been destroyed by socialism so its the socialism that has crept into the system that is responsible for the problems in this mass disparity in wealth but also you assume that this is going to end well for the rich i assure you its not these asset bubbles are temporary a lot of this wealth only exists on paper people are not actually spending that money its just on an on a brokerage account statement what is coming is a major collapse in the value of the dollar the inflation is ultimately going to result in the cost of living rising much faster than the paper value of peoples assets so believe me the rich are going to get theirs too everybody in america is going to be impoverished to a degree by these failed policies its not just of course the middle class theyre just going to suffer the most but in the end the rich are going to suffer too but the real solution for everybody is a return to capitalism what we need is sound and money and independent fed that no longer artificially manipulates insta Interest Rates to prop up asset prices and is subsidized government deficit spending we need much higher Interest Rates that will result in a big decline in spending from government and consumers will have more savings will have more capital or Capital Investment we need a lot less regulation as well as cuts to Government Spending so we can have a more vibrant economy instead of the sick economy we have now that is on life support that is temporarily benefiting people who own the assets that benefit from the inflation that the fed is creating but ultimately that inflation is going to rise result in an increase in the cost of living for everybody and we are headed for a dollar crisis and clearly the rich own more dollars in any. But we all play they have the most to lose when the value of the dollars theyre holding completely implodes ok im certain i think we have one thing all 3 of us have been coming to a crisis that is on her rights but richard how can how can you save money and how can you invest money if you dont have a job i mean its very simple here. Yeah i mean im mazed a little bit by this and were going to have high Interest Rates were going to really crunch down on the economy you mention in passing that consumers will have to save more they dont have anything left to save from thats why this level of savings of the great mass of americans is virtually 0 or negative already theyve been suffering for so long theres nothing left to crunch down on them which is already happening now it is a recipe for much more turmoil and chaos in this society then we are already then were already seeing i agree with peter that this is going to end very badly and its going to diesel late the bubble at the stock market alongside of Everything Else but for me this is the end of an empire for the 1st time in my adult life i dont see a way out i dont see a solution emerging i used to it my ear that way capitalism over change the Great Depression and all the other afflictions that it has imposed on the people around it but i dont hassle isnt it in a hose those inflexions government did not listen it honestly out of work late and it struck me as one remarkable thing so blaines socialism for the ills of capitalism is an extraordinary move at a time like this when the socialist movement is coming back from a period of historic weakness precisely at the time that the growth and equality what went into that as unesco show as an adventure a lot as in well they need all the service. Undermining the structure of the it was on me look youre talking about the social niceties and i have to jump in here were going to go to a heart rate now to give you one especially one with a recovery say what are. Its going to be hard to reclaim freedom and were going to have to work at it but as people recognize from examples like seems young. What replenish and Digital Systems need to. I hope people will start fighting men saying we wont tolerate systems in our streets in our homes that cant possibly track what were doing. Is youll media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Tyson nation community. Are you going the right way or are you being so. Direct. What is true what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or remain in the shallows. Time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustained. Willesee very important to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport sustainability stay in her manner more equitable and sustainable well. They claim their production is completely harmless. The big. Companies want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away this is Something Else this doesnt want any minute. News no we didnt dream and then we understood so when. Welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle tree mind you were discussing whether there will be a k. Recovery. Ok richard let me go back to you in new york. A few years ago i met an indian businessmen very successful indian businessmen and at the time indias economy was doing quite well again usually using these macro be Macro Economic indicators ok g. D. P. Growth. Income number of people employed but at the same time theres like 200000000 people that live in stark probert in india and i said to him i said is your the indian model just to accept that youve got to have 200000000 people and start poverty because you see your economy is growing and as an investment target people are pouring money into it i mean is it it has the Indian Economy sense except that its going to have an underclass so im asking you is this whats happening to america where you were going to have an underclass a permanent underclass plus an ip. And it will the perception is that the will be enough political stability to maintain the status quo because it seems to me i agree with the last remarks you made in the 1st part of the pro the program is that you know i dont see a way out here go ahead richard. Yeah i think thats exactly whats happening i think were learning in a variety of ways to live with an enormous underclass i disagree with you that we didnt already have one i think are good but i think it we are now learning to live with a much larger one and you can see that in a variety of ways except in space flight what people claim of 200000 people dead from a pandemic that didnt have anything like that impact in many many other countries the United States has 4 and a half percent of the worlds people it has 25 percent of the cold it cases and 25 percent of the deaths for a rich country thats a stupefying failure of management but its also the acceptance of guns the couple suffering in its population as if it were normal and ditto for the level of poverty divil ditto for the level of discrimination dr Antony Funnell chief yesterday at the bloomberg equality senate explained how people of color in america have the lowest wealth the lowest income dalias. Cases of coldish and they are the frontline workers they are the ones that are suffering from hypertension diabetes obesity if you wanted a proof of everything the black lives Matter Movement wanted to suggest about systemic racism you could just listen to dr found chief in 15 minutes and you would get it and it is being accepted mainly by the government right now as official policy so instead doing absolutely nothing to undercut it i think we are becoming the society we used to see overseas enclaves of wealth new York San Francisco chicago and all of that and so rounded by a sea of really desperate poverty they have accepted that in india and they have. Our system is if not more despite the independence from Great Britain they had to accept it in brazil another case and boy you look at trump blow sonora and moldy and you can see the kind of right wing government which this is an acceptable range you know and it will be say im going to follow politics very carefully and i watch snippets of the the republican and democratic conventions and i was appalled im simply appalled that Neither Party has a pro active economic agenda presumed to presume to pursue in light of the. High unemployment. And the in the structural changes that are going through the economy i didnt see that from either party here and it goes back to my question to richard is there is this an exception acceptance that were just going to have a whole lot more poor people. Well you know were i disagree that weve even been having a growing economy i dont think we had any growth even before kovac and i think the g. D. P. Numbers were manufactured based on understating the true rate of inflation and so by understating inflation you can make it appear that a stagnating or shrinking economy is is actually growing its not you know the reason that americans dont have any savings is because the economy has been growing theyve been able to keep it together through debt theyve used debt to replace their income but why is that its because we dont have a vibrant economy because we dont have real increases in productivity thanks to Big Government and banks the Federal Reserve so were in this gigantic hall because we have banded capitalism and embraced a socialist form of government we have Government Central planning we have Central Planning on Interest Rates we have price fixing and market manipulation and we have an economy where were trying to i generate growth by printing money and giving it to people to spend and that. Its not going to work well they said the only way to get really good amik growth is to shrink government so that we can have a stronger more vibrant economy because we need more productivity to consume more we have to produce more and the government doesnt produce anything all it does is interfere with the productive efforts of the private sector you know the problem is though but peter but the government it particularly in the last 2 years that particularly during this economic turndown they chose winners i mean you know so jeff bezos and downfall and all that theyre the real socialists in america because theyre the winner in all of this ok i mean i think you know these terms calculus and socialism dont really mean anything for me is that both bennett who is bent out of it promote all of this the middle class is not the working class isnt the Big Tech Companies are. The banks are doing really well here are the banks that are doing well look at the debate here imploding look at look at their sare prices look the Banking Sector is in a lot of trouble but look none of the bailouts should have happened there should have been a p. P. P. The whole thing was a disaster nobody should be getting a check from the government these extended Unemployment Benefits for a mistake what we need is Less Government not more government government has to cut spending not increase it money printing is just going to make it worse is going to destroy the value of our money and were going to blame all these problems on capitalism and were going to continue to build a bigger and bigger government that is going to suffocate the life out of this economy and the people who are going to suffer the most are going to be that middle class of the poor ok were going to face are you did it if you have i agree with you how the dollar is being