Hello and welcome to cross talk were all things are considered on Peter Lavelle shifting alliances to washingtons unrelenting policy assaults against russia and china has already altered the world order what remains to be seen is how must go in beijing will Work Together to confront a hostile west also while america ever be normal again. To discuss a real news im joined by my guests Marcus Papadopoulos in london he is the editor of politics 1st magazine and in budapest we have george samueli he is an author and a you tuber the goggle original macross of praise in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it or i was going to london. Marcuss you know weve been watching over the last few years a closer relationship between moscow and beijing and as a matter of fact a couple days ago when asked about it the tension military alliance which these 2 countries do not know right now but this possibility putin said this the russian president theoretically its quite possible to imagine that with or without any doubt our cooperation with china is bolstering the defense because capacity of chinas army time will show how it will develop we cant exclude it weve never heard this before from the russian president whats changed. In a period of 5 decades russia and china have gone from the brink of war with each other which could have it both Nuclear Weapons to a situation today where both countries have formed an informal sure c. G. Partnership with one another to see american nicole who must arrange now given that 5 decades sees in relative terms of very short period of time the turnaround in relations between moscow and beijing is quite simply association however i am of the opinion that theres a lation ship betrayed russia and china is not one of their fantasy it is one of necessity both countries need each other to prosper you know well its in no way should. Be over who to create power now i so i do not see any reason why the informal should see to partnership between russia and china wont break down of the forseeable future but there are serious challenges to that relationship and it is these challenges are only ones that people in washington and london come from really or even recent times so for example china is continuing to try and undermine russias predominance in central asia and now become all the more so once china launches its one belts and it is it and then you have lost just very close relationship our relationships with india and vietnam which is a very serious concern for china because india and vietnam. Through various potential adversaries all china and china could very easily come including a war with both of those countries then you have chinas very close relationship with america which gives a lot of concern to the kremlin. And so we also have to tell you. Into consideration the military relationship now im very aware what president putin says boss im not so sure he really believes that there will be a military alliance because the russians are very sensitive and concerned about a supply of high tech. Solutions military because many in the kremlin often says. Russia could be there was enough military force in china one day it could strengthen the National Security of the Russian Federation now all that said i see the relationship between russia and china continue in syria blossom in the future but there are very serious challenges cigarettes you know sure he really has when it didnt have to be this that this wasnt an inevitability here this relationship we can put ever whatever adjective you want to put in front of it but this is basically the makings of washington i mean and and they did they did it with eyes wide open go ahead george yes without question. What 3. Since the end of the cold war has been a massive expansion of nato something the russians would be to blame warned they didnt exist then read. The United States with the growing brown key military agreement with russia most recently from the i and the but before that from the a. B. M. Treaty and now so theyre planning with a group of the open skies agreement. And now you know it could be that the new start treaty has also put history so that one thing well the other thing which is over real terms on russia is the level of a betrayal that is directed toward russia and of from ordinary the from the tabloid press but from the very. Highest levels of the u. S. Government it will not be. The people who are in the executive branch with people who are in congress. And of course you have the media stoking those so when you have. The absence of any arms agreements a possible arms race developing process that its already a possibility yes then russia does view of britain and is obviously growing towards china now china also feels very threatened because it is gradually replacing the United States as the global they have Enormous Economic and financial power and never in history has one had your money quietly ceded its the role in the world to a rising hetman and given the hostility that emanating war china from trump and especially now biden is actually saying that trump of being too soft on china so its quite obvious that some sort of a serious home plate between the United States and china is like in the very near future so you can see why both russia and china book existential reasons are increasingly grohl towards each other and who was saying was that this is a real possibility is not saying that its going to happen tomorrow but that is no real possibility so you know. I mean thats marcus and thats exactly how i read it is that you know its almost table and it is negotiable and it depends on external factors and i think that that was just kind of basically putting up the flag on the floor and seeing if anybody salutes and it is actually also a warning ok because theres theres this. Ridiculous li held concept in the west that russia is just begging to join the American Coalition and you know in in its of this part of this american exceptionalism if you just listen to us and do it we say everything will be fine with the russians not thats not true in the chinese certainly dont know thats not true as a matter of right now china is on the receiving end of what russians been on the receiving end for years go ahead marcus. Oh absolutely you know gone are the days away in the last just sort integration with the west and im talking about us in the early days. Of his tenure in power now that hes. Long gone laughter eases shrive interest she is for potential in the wells and russia understands acutely that in order for his her its chief its full potential then he is really does have to seek should see jake alliances around the world and that is one of the main reasons why russia has forms that they see unofficial shifts egypt harshit china and its certainly the case that a military alliance between moscow and beijing ease possible unless those challenges to the relationship which i outlined moments ago are of his oath and our military alliance simply will not happen and it is it is also a case that there is talk in washington and london that the american screwed thats what we are should nixon attempted and indeed actually achieved to drool china away from russia as nixon through china away from the soviet union and i referred earlier to how china has a very very heavy relationship with america that is one way if the americans could achieve distrust in the relationship between moscow and beijing now i dont see that happen it is. Anything new anything is possible but challenges between russia and china really have to be resolved and in regards to india russia has put itself forward so all of the parties concerned as a mediator as a british because russia is telling china india and 3 and a half that leslie was so for all. Less fuel cells for the soul the difference is that who is going to benefits it is going to be america last russia acts and as a mediator has not worked so far because china and india came to blows. Questionis tension is growing thats free in china and finance and the chinese know who breaks out in strange china and india or china and 3 and a half chinese soldiers who die and die behind last mays weapons and those options are on incident safe india and so i do hope this challenge can be results you know but i think i think that given the case of ok having difficulty resolving these issues ok its that these are very clear here but the other the other gambit is is to trust washington and i dont see thats possible i think that george you really i saw you nodding your head i mean the thing is is that the american politics is at a point right now were russia is just the cultural to fight your internal enemies ok so i cant see how this is going to change very much and i think the chinese have actually learned to watching how washington is treated a must in its a real printer because all the issues that mark has just brought up its probably easier to deal with those issues than to deal with the administration in the United States. Though we have a question peter because. This kind of talk comes from washington about how well we should now be a tilt toward russia against china just as you know nixon tilted towards china against the soviet union its just hogwash because. Of the so many years of unremitting hostility toward russia and serious threat towards russia you cant just turn around and say oh well that will be bygones be bygones and now please joy. Join us in some kind of a Global Coalition against china i mean there are terms on stupid its made up of it well that essentially whats behind this is a kind of lets you and him fight you know theyre going to try and push russia into a war with china and then they can bury us the gist of the said back white this is this is a really bad conflict going on here so i think theres just you know that train left the station a long time ago. But i do think that the comfort china conflict with india and china comping vietnam while real are i think much less urgent right now than the conflict with the United States i mean thats the thats a serious one because here you get. The United States which is really now very concerned about this role in the world and this is this is not happen this is were talking out of us its like the 45. 00 no one has challenged the United States the supremacy in the world i mean yes the soviet union did when he came to nuclear arms but in terms of economics finance. Geopolitical influence certainly in it with the right world i say china is not in a position to do that ok i dont even want any were going to go to west or breaking out of that so a break well continue our discussion in some real state with r. T. Welcome back to cross up where all things are considered im here a little true mind you were discussing some real news. Ok let me go back to marcus sitting in london pat buchanan an author i often cite on this program and came out with another brilliant column a couple of days titled america a land of ceaseless conflict and he ruminates about the evolution that some people have in the Political Class media in the United States is that once trumps gone everything is going to go back to normal will get every will be quiet and even you know joe biden said on the campaign trail nothing will fundamentally change these people dont know what theyre talking about because the rift that is going on in american politics and culture is so deep the obese the abyss is so deep that i think that you know what happened in the trunk administration is this reflection of those divisions that he didnt create those divisions irrespective of how you feel about trump so going back to normal thats an illusion marcus what do you think. America is not for want of a better word a new whole country firstly it was born out of genocide and secondly and the fact so im going to side now might be distasteful to a lot of people any particular near you liberals are quite frankly im only interested in what they frank but america is not a nation states and that Manes America has never truly had an identity america has never truly has a coach was the most soulful the largest groups and groups in america are moving european for example with english german sorriest so sirish and and irish there are many other ethnic groups there if you take australia australia in america have relatively speaking similar length periods of history there is more of an Australian National identity in culture and unity than there is in america because the vast majority of australians descend from the british ottos in particular england but in america the you do not have that sort of harmony so that is a major problem we hear a lot of liberals in america talk about how america is a successful military it would be nice if everyone in the wells was united that is not how human beings have evolved human beings have the fountains of us if over into trying that is the way it is the way its always will be and indeed flame a person once ostroff or totally doesnt merit or actually have a coach and im saying it doesnt because america is not a nation state that is why america will always be divided no matter who sits in but yet you can make the argument that it is a nation state of multiple tribes ok i think that that. Thats a viable argument to make here but george you know to my point here i mean these divisions have been with us for a very long time and something one of my favorite mantras as you well know is that you know the the im the neil liberal ideology that is that is practiced and forced down on on everyone its it does argue about what culture means what American Culture means but they refused to talk about class and that is the biggest division ok you know a black live matter there and you know or a portion you know these are the things they do to keep us divided and i and i would be willing to say. Saw it very differently and its up to our viewers to decide how successful he has been but the you know the class issue is what got him elected and thats an issue that could get him reelected if he were focused on it but it is late day in the game i dont know if hes going to be able to to overcome but you know joe biden said you know nothing will fundamentally change well thats the problem when things need to fundamentally change ok because the next republican after trauma of those in 4 years or 8 years its going to be somebody thats going to be like trump but probably a far more effective in office go ahead george. Yes heres the other problem with the United States you know and to be a functioning democracy in means that there is a consensus and theres a consensus about the succession of power i mean what happened in 2016 and i think it at least in terms of modern history is never happened which is one class simply refused to accept that election result well when that happens of course then youve got the makings of a civil war because whichever way this election goes its almost certainly going to be a very close one and its very unlikely that either side will accept the election result. Should be reelected then you the so those who have been rioting all of this year plus this all of the media allies will be justifying the violence or the with and the black lives matter they will be in support they will be they will support the violence and they will just simply refuse to accept a trumps or election whether they blame russia for it or theyll find Something Else of the blame the october surprise the brave bring it all trumps by bringing up the theres a laptop they will blame that and almost certainly within days of being inaugurated nancy pelosi house will launch an impeachment yet another impeachment if it goes the other way if it goes if biden wins and particularly are we going to have these elections you where were going to be counting and counting and counting for weeks on end and suddenly whoa by them as one weve got the votes then i think theyll be a real burst in the growth of the militant movement and as happened in the ninetys its quite likely that the u. S. Administration will likely try to crack down on the militant movement. If it ends in the kind of bloodshed as happened in waco 1903 then you know then the best really good to be of violence a very serious insurrection that the government may well not be able to cope with because even the government in britain dont behave like other little happened at waco i mean the Yemeni Government itself there might be ok thats when you you know marcus i dont think the topic for the program i think there is American Culture but i mean probably think about it differently being an american i suppose but i mean one thing that you know for a viable nations you have to have institutions where there is a consensus that they these institutions have legitimacy kind of picking up on what george is and there are these institutions you not have universal legitimacy and not is the problem right here people dont believe in the electoral outcomes anymore ok they dont believe that the in the state is going to enforce protection of their rights weve seen and it depends on what you know what your political create is i mean you can you can land on one side of the law and if you have a different radio on another side ok and its basically liberals that take care of themselves and if youre a perfect example people in trumps orbit being indicted and things like that then with the legitimacy of the system as they saying is and doubt this election is going to show it go ahead months if i. Pay such wall following a society to get off easy a dominant culture that is absolutely crucial for insured. Home use the existence of society but i absolutely accept there are many other factors which can be sciences to account for why American Society historically is divided and as you correctly cited peter cost is a major factor and that is something about i said to democrats and all those upon a concern. You cant in syria count those who stay down i suspect they know its the case. Yes that lease me on through your money i believe that if there is to be who he lists it chomped surrealistic opportunity of creating a far greater degree of harmony it never in society then there has to be. Another Political Party in america one that is truly independent one that does not have to very slowly agree or