And we know that rushes are good far terms of putting a duncan, what was the last, what do we know that the flu, your it was country elect, expressive dental. They hadnt been any unconstitutional or redeemed changes, and would have to uh know, said their own peoples vast resources in our country and we can get to the take advantage of that potential. I think that we can develop our partnership in training and educating professionals. I remember that i had and they put it back to 00. What was that . Was the president , not into my apologies that of getting this out into his counterpart. So russian present button and then until the end of what about uh they actually the key thing that i took away from that was, you need this out front of the russian president for is independence rush. I helped in some way with i will bring more on that later on in the day. But if im out, lets o for this out. Now, big sciences is up next on the impact, then well be back of the top of the hour with the latest headlines, the time action redundancy, and welcome back to going underground broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. A. Tomorrow amex, 10 years to the day since wiki leaks with a blow. Chelsea manning was found guilty and laid a jailed for revealing to the world u. S. War crimes. In the van biggest u. S. Military information leak in history. We have a different kind of revealing of tubes on todays show, the former pentagons, chuck spin, a famous for what was coined the spinney report, which criticized us defense spending and the pursuit of complex weapons. With a u. S. Military strategist, of 20 years. Yall gives his Ground Breaking eightys report along with subsequent reports. Hes written over the years or more relevant today than ever this while the United States, the country with the highest military budget in the world, arguably spins out of control when it comes to defense. Pouring weapons into ukraine is part of the nature of proxy. What with russia, he joins me for todays episode from arlington in virginia. Chuck, thank so much for coming on, you know, just last weeks going on the ground. We had larry larry wilkerson, the former, cheapest job to the secretary of state, and he said, people are building extensions to their homes in virginia and maryland. Youre going to have to rim claim does a, just a very briefly about your revelations and the i understand that was taken on board at the time you went to, you know, put in jail for revealing an edge corruption or incompetence when it came to pentagon procurement but this, in the life of the fact that 2020 twos budget is 877000000000. 00 from the us public money. And the pentagon couldnt account for overall of its 3 point one trillion and assets last year. Its a 4400000000 and tracked in venture in the u. S. Navy 5200000000 and the oil in the us air force variance compared to the ledger, remind us what you were talking about when it came to waste. And it was corruption, as regards the us military Industrial Complex as well. I was part of a group, there were just trying to fix things. And depending on and i think the main focus of my work was i was working on our applications of technology and the excessive complexity which led to rising cost costs always go up faster than the budget. So as a result, weapons get boston get, get bonded never decreasing quantities and modernization rates. The decrease the average age of weapons in the inventories increases, which which uh, creates a demand for even higher budgets because things are becoming older and older all the time. And they end up uh, in order to, to fund the rising costs of modernization. They, uh, Decision Maker is independent on inevitably uh, start robbing the readiness accounts. Which basically consists of a training budgets budget is for spare parts budget for war, reserve, nutrition, stockpiles and things like that. And, and, you know, and even maintenance of Real Property like, got just, you know, repair and buildings and things like that. You know, i guess your trusted southern costs and crisis even though the budgets are going through the roof. And whats happening today with the budget you just cited is, is identical. And whats been happening for the last while at least since the 196 these and probably earlier, the problem with figuring out what was going on earlier is that the data is the pentagon. Collect data is impossible to design for other than some very primitive measures like rock line and these of airplanes or are tags, things like that. But Less Computers came in early sixtys. Uh, the records got a little better and you could, you could start tracking this stuff. Of course, the bookkeeping system, as you indicated, is totally correct. Ok. And in fact, uh, what was the results of, of my work indirectly, not directly wasted weather, became increasing calls for these are annual audits under the chief Financial Officers active of 1990 and, and basically these auditors are not like business audits. The concern because honest as they theyre, theyre basically check what i call checks and balances on it. Theyre basically seeing its a pentagon is conforming or any other Government Agency for that matter. They are covered. Everything is conforming to the dictates of the constitution which says you have to submit a report of your financial status from time to time. And you have to account for the money your expenditures of funds by relating them to appropriations by congress. So its not like a financial audit that a company does. It is basically a political on it, the checks the uh, the conformity of the executive department in my case, depending on with the constitutional requirements and when, when you dont pass it on it, it basically says youre not, youre not conforming to the dictates of the constitution which is, which is a verb, um its, its against the law because the constitution is a lot of land. Well, thats the price of freedom. You know, you know, up the road and congress and the way the votes have gone as regards the Appropriations Committee funding that, thats the price. Uh it, it takes, but all the other hand, chuck grassley, president of the us and the longest a is having some through, i believe, you know, hes in the news this week actually over the President Biden son the hunter, after releasing the f b, i papers connecting him to ukraine or do you think hes happy with the all this money going to ukraine . I mean, on this end, it is as a much more uh, happy with it. I dont know what. What senator grassley is position is on ukraine. I know hes not happy with pen expensive the way depending on spending money. Yeah. I know senator grassley on and off since 1983 and hes a serious about trying to get the parent gone to clean up is boxes. Hes one of the few congressman or senator is that is actually tried to get to get this financial chief Financial Officers that complied was and he deserves a lot of credit for that. Hes read your report, right . So you must be talking about it and the card was a power all the time saying look, have you know, heard about drugs, we need to report back then in the eightys. We should be following that as a template for the future. The reason the reason i testified in 1983 the lead to the big story, the cover of time magazine. Correct. Uh he uh uh, grassley was the one who basically sprung me. I made the bag. I did want me to go over there. Visually they, they were threatened to congress was threatening subpoenas. And, and so i had explicit authorization to testify from the secretary defense, caspar weinberger. And so i was dragged over there as, as we said, depending on kicking and screaming. Course grassley, grassy, tried to meet with me in my office, one dining throw of prior to the here and he got into his car and drove over to the dining on him and tried to meet you in my office. I didnt know he was doing this at the time, but i was told to just sit tight in my office and i was going to have a surprise. And, and they, uh, they basically told him, i wasnt available. Okay, but if anyones watching this program now watching the pen to get not a scientist like yourself, maybe may be an accountant. Who knows . So whats in that uh 5 sided building in the, in the east coast of america. Im feels look, ive just bought and something this is like overcharging. I know theyre being cases a little bit charging for parts that are presumably down and ukraine. Right now the us taxpayer got done for maybe 4000 percent. Who knows . What are they supposed to do . Because they treated you pretty well. I know were just ahead of the end of those 3 of the of chelsea mannings. A you know, torture of, of being get found guilty. But yeah, yeah. They listen to you didnt they, they, they gave you a good hearing. You were still working at the pentagon for years later. So what does someone do now if they say, because no one is saying anything, like what you said right now, theyre saying thats a good deal in most. And the vast majority of the people dont really understand. Even the people inside, depending on dont understand how the system is really working. Its basically uh, the product of the cultural convolution since since at least world war 2. And, and i did, they caught all the incompetence job shortly to find some of the math or not every lab work hard working. But there are people that are embedded in the system or making the system is actually controlling their behavior. And theyve adapted to it. And, and most of the people can see the forest of the trees and my, my experience, my experience working with people in the back ons, vast majority on the lieutenant colonels, the majors and in, you know, most of the girls are very decent people and theyre very hard work and these people are working, you know, 6070 hours a week sometimes. But they, they are working on a little a little compound of a huge system. And, and basically these guys, their job is to protect back up on it and get funding. Okay, thats why we you different then back then because theres only one of you. Why were you different i was brought in to do the kind of work i did. I was brought in explicitly for that. I if you go back to, in my early days in the pentagon ice, i 1st arrived at the pentagon as a, as a 28 year old kept in the air force. And when i came to, depending on i was working for this free trial real, real maverick, this colonel was, was a brand was a brand bureaucratic in fighter as well. They use a conceptual designer and he was payments fine or fine. And he basically put another captain to work on this, trying to figure out how the air force budget was screwed up. And then i came in and i was assigned to work with that captain. So the 2 captains basically started working on this thing and, and we made a lot of progress, although we didnt really change anything. Our understanding certainly increased, but i, i, uh, i, i got praise that up and i retired and i resigned in 1975. Yeah, so you were there for a while. It is, i mean, im just say this week. Oh, i wonder what im getting at is, is i, i, i was working in this civil sector after i left a parent gone in, i got a phone call one day from, from a very senior 9 kind of guy. And he said, uh invited me down there any basically offered me a job and it was oriented toward continuing the work ive been doing in the air force. Thats how i got involved. And so i was doing when i was brought to the band on the do, they just didnt look like it. And. And initially, during the Carter Administration they were supporting the work, you know, carter was getting blame for all the readiness problems in the military. But, but he was just inheriting a system that had gone a mock. We saw this in the early seventies during the nixon administration. And thats why we were doing it. Thats why we were assigned to do what we were doing back then. But so as of, as of now, lloyd austin spent again his independence, the president ial power as well. Its always been sort of the same as a residential bower. I think roosevelt was the last president to really control the pentagon, maybe eisenhower to a sort of an expand but uh uh, basically uh our work which made an enormous progress in the seventys in the early eightys, which is a lot more than, but it was a covered a lot more than budgetary were basically when writing was throwing money at the band on, you know, the incentive to reform ourselves sort of went away. And you basically bought off and, and, and people, people started leaving people that were doing the work started leaving or were diary and by the ninetys, the whole Reform Movement inside the pentagon was dead. Steve, this thing, the thing was i was, i was, i was a player in a group of people who many of whom were uniform or even a few generals, preferably involved. I was nicely, uh, uh, feel great off there is majors lou tanker rolled in criminals. You a few generals and civilians and uh, and congressmen like grassley, um and rogers, uh, in fact, you know, even dick cheney was on the military reformed block as. So a lot of people knew it was a problem. And it just, uh, by throwing money at the pentagon, all the incentive to change, you know, just sort of evaporated checks. Me, ill just stop you that more from the legendary retired u. S. Military strategist, you want to the so called spinning a report. Often this break the, the welcome back to going on the ground. Im still here with the legendary originally had u. S. Military strategist, chuck spinny, chuck, we were talking about the loss of input, tennessee, and any idea or a reform at the pentagon. Just this week, the naval systems come on is released to something called soul source delivery order. I dont know when that is to Lockheed Martin for integrating long range and the shipments sales only have 35 presumably for war against china. Im not sure if 35 program much in for something that is being criticized over the years. Does that mean the us tax here let alone us simple additions are all for the f 35. 0 i, i, uh, thats a very interesting question. Uh, we bought about 500 f 35 so far. I think maybe 300 have been delivered on their totally they, theyre talking about buying over 2000. Uh and, and uh, is beginning to show if it hasnt passed as operational tests. Yeah. Even though we bought, we bought all these planes. It doesnt have the full suite of electronics in it. So were going to have to rebuild the ones that have been built already when we get the sol suite. And of course, the full suite theyve been having trouble developing their and who knows that that will work. It is essentially a reincarnation on a much grander scale than the f 111 debacle in the 19 seventys. And it comes from a decision process that is basically oriented toward getting programs prematurely in the production. So they cant be stopped. Essentially, essentially its called uh, the conqueror and engineering and manufacturing development. And basically what that, thats the approval point if they call it milestone to in the data. Gone is the approval point where the contractor, in this case lockie basically starts doing big time work on the, on the design of the plane. At the same time, theyre building their manufacturing capability and theyre setting up their sub contract or network in all the Congressional Districts are as many as possible. And im, im sure theyre over 40 states involved in the 35. I havent seen the latest lay down. I can find Congressional District but, but uh, basically the idea is you get the money, go into all the congressmen and all the districts and all these companies. And then they create lobbies that you basically cant turn the thing off. Its a very sophisticated game, and its developed and evolved and it didnt start off. It wasnt pre meditated that sort of evolved to try on there. So starting in the 19 fifties and, and, and thats one reason why we cant control the pentagons budget. Now do you have 35 is fine to talk about, but thats the tip of the iceberg unit. Its a small terabyte. I personally believe its advantage gone, getting cold, cold feet on the 35, and i wouldnt be surprised that you saw people trying to cancel it before too long. Shorter has already there being sort of how i say it running out of ammunition, right . I mean, thats why the comfortable homes are being sent to you. Grant. Yeah. So the important thing to understand is depending on budget, youre talking about what 477000000000 this year is. What they have done is they have shovel all this money into the modernization accounts and they built whats called a barrel wave of future weapons. And theyve all been, theyve all been rushed past milestone to now theyre not spending a huge amount of money on some of these systems. Some of the systems are, are pretty expensive, but so far. But what theyve done is theyve planted the seed money and theyre spreading the money around the country for these individual systems. Weve got a new icbm and development. We have a new bomber in development. We have a fighter replacement for the s 22. And so you know, a fire in development, we have a, a summary wash, and thats a summary, a Ballistic Missile launch. In summary, its, thats in development destroyers. New new, uh, new fee, a weapons. And you have a huge amount of money going into space without any oversight to speak of. So basically what weve done is weve created a huge bill for the future and no one knows how much this is its. Its going to be over a tree and dollars for sure, and were going to be paying for this for the next 80 years. How does it, how did it keep all this from the American Public . Because, you know, we know 40000000 rely on food stamps over there and they were, you know, the media was come to hear about the villainy as nato summit is a Great Success of unity. How, how is it that the, the awful, terrible tale that you describe of what amounts to all the, got a corruption. And i think you said once that dies and how i meant to say military industrial, congressional complex, how do they keep it from the American People that as well, you know, it does uh, in the seventys we have newspapers who, who have reported is, who are actually trying to understand what was going on and a lot of it came out uh it, it started momentum for change and, and basically uh, that momentum petered out. I, i personally believe it was because of all the money, right. And through the payment on it just bought everybody off. Today the newspapers are, are part of the problem. They are, theyre just talking about the super weapons. And in fact, if you now the ukraine situation is a classic case of where this takes us. Basically, when, if you go back and read some of the press reports right after the war started, youll see that the