Peace preserving. As this positioning wishes to appearance is bound to lead to conflict or to discuss that im now joined from canada by victor, talking with teachers of concord. The university of edmonton mixer is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. Thank you for the invitation. X on its a pleasure to be in this program. Mr. You have a very interesting take on the current intentions between russia in the west, which ultimately comes down to the size deep seated perception of themselves. And the nature of reality, which you summarize as the u. S. As in systems on being the 1st among its most and rushes claim on being and they quote, among 1st, do you think such a class will self images could be a result this fully . Well i, i, i cool rate but it can be, but of course it is problematic given the see how deep these cultural differences use a given how deep with the psychological difference to use ultimately in terms of the collective psychology off of the leadership of the 2 sides right. Uh indians. Uh this, this is the ideas that came to me appropriate as a result of uh my uh, key chain for a number of years at, uh, uh, 2 religious institutions, ultimate, the rates. Uh, its a smaller universities here in edmonton, both of which i protest and foundations as a beginning. Uh and uh, this, uh, this is something that may make, make me, made me look, look into, into this religious origins of a political culture of the west end of the United States of america in particular. And then of course, my older research as a historian had to do with the cultural history of give us the uh, on the russian side. Right. And specifically the goal. So heres to go to the russian, all the wars. So was there, id be that a lot of attention to the now, once again, the, the cultural practices of jamal example diplomacy is the perception. So the representation will definitely can discuss all of those differences. And i think your main point is that both russia and america are exceptionally distinct in how they evolve historically and the economically and socially. And before we go into that i, i wonder if you can see any similarity in how these 2 big nations to break powers go about manifesting themselves into a world as well. You see story, etc. Busy by the whole, those who look for differences for particularly are useful, unique qualities of historical entity is right the opposite as of control and each other. It is probably the task of the political scientist and the social logistics to, to focus on the same values on the universal, reproducible trans. Right. Uh. But once again i was about. Busy to re emphasize this, this, this, this difference. And yes, you know, as much as the way of periods when the 2 sides treated each other on more or less equal terms. My arguments would be that these were rather exceptional in the, in the long history of the relations. Let me see something thats more of the accession to exceptional because its 1st and foremost associated with the american exceptionalism. Man, youre arguing that the United States is exceptional in 2 major ways. Its joe graphy or rather geography granted, security being buffering by 2 oceans. And 2 wicker and neighbors is exceptional ability to strike with impunity without the steering im in retribution and which essentially allow the americans to wage war is over the last couple of decades and perhaps even longer. Now, do you think russia is exceptional enough as an adversary to and my palm is intended to provide an exception to the typical ways of american exceptionalism . Well, i would say that its exceptional and his desire, historically, his desire to be equal among the 1st, which was the prospect of its long efforts to join the european concert and the rpm balance of power of the European Club of great powers. And also the tags that he was part of that club for about a century and a half or perhaps 2 centuries. And then its exception. That is, is also a reflection of the fact that hes pretty much the only remaining great power of this kind are now in your up or, or, and desk even using brother world. Right. As it is a, is a tragedy. One of the sale of russia is thats this club of european great powers of which you want it to be pirates for such a long time. Hes no longer there. Why dont interesting observation youre making that russia is perhaps the only, as you said, power that sort of appears through this perception of. 8 being impervious on the part of the americans, and if we hear, if you listen to them or theres a speech as of american, the policy makers, they say that, you know, theyre still the strongest, the nation in the world that nothing threatens them. But do you think the americans in the field as sick you are now as a professor to be as well as certainly not, i mean one, hist understands that until the end of the 2nd world war, right . Uh, the was no feasible prospect to say any major attack of the continental techy of the United States. Right. And in that sense, as the 1st century in the house of american history, a pause in the exception of the sick your conditions, right . So that explains so much in the transformation of the United States of america, inter f and major power of a global power of power that was actually of seberio, right . And its in its capacity is to any of the european great powers of the previous period, right . And then of course comes, they have the cold war, which as i would argue for a very long time was deal and a symmetrical confrontation given still is a great discrepancy. The in the resources of the, to the size as well as in the level of security that they enjoy. But still, i would say that the most significant achievement doesnt with of this over to you. And yet it was still a close that gap in terms of the, again, the relative security that the 2 sides enjoy. And in that sense, of course, uh, i would say that the soviet unions compromised show would save them better than security uh to the point of leading a lasting impression on of them. Again, the approach to Foreign Policy on their collective cycle as you own the perception of russia even today. But you know, weeks are ive spoken to many are storing slightly and many of them point out that during the cold war, uh, i mean, one distinct feature of the cold war was decided that both the United States and russia engage an approximate counseling day maam. Uh for that uh uh, to intervene directly in the neighborhood of each other when they own the exception of the cuban missile crisis. But it was also sparked by, you know, the trick case, the case and the a manual. The margin that the United States move to change that approach recently by pushing ever closer to russian borders and by militarize and ukraine. You agree with this piece is what do you think . Prompted this change of tactics on the american side. And, you know, essentially picking up a bottle with, with russian directly almost directly through ukraine. Oh, yeah, so, but uh, 1st of all, i was actually question of the, the magnitude of that change. Because as you kind of mentioned to the goal, more or less above all, it conflicts codes, right . But as a proxy wars the gym, the 2 simple bowers is where taking place in africa, south east asia, other places. Right. But we should never turned into the actual war. And i think this is part of the broad of trends that we see since the 2nd world war in terms of this transition. And they agree 0. Busy no, no peace, no more, right . Uh, and theres a clear distinction that itd be some rule that was once again, the characteristics of me, your appeal system of international relations. Simply aidens in might in the century. Right . Its, its, its disappearing gradually. Right . And we are again, in this, increasingly in the, these grades all what, what makes the cutting call think different, of course uses geography. Right. Its no longer goal light. Its no longer get now its no longer cuba, it is in india grade. Right. Uh, and this is something that makes this conflict different uh, including in terms of how real im free are the 2 sides to disengage right now. All weve discussed before in this self assurance aptitude that the United States historically had about it security. I think russell couldnt have been more different. You argue in your article that russia from never been privileged by an abiding sense of security quite on the country, has been chronically and secure. Oh, has it shaved uh, its own um, national and political psychology and oh, well, i think that in the years of the cold war thats ultimately resulted in is that the rather solid, i would say, approach of the solvent industry strategist says that consistency in challenging the security of the opponent rather than trying to secure it, sold absolutely. Security which i think is, is absolutely on attainable. Hes an illusion. Ultimate, you see. And anyway, im the only swap for rush or the soviet union or the thing its unintelligible for the United States as well. I think that ultimately its on the table for, for, for any, any power in todays world. And the reason for that is well known to any specialist on strategy is much cheaper. It technically easier to deny, secure, usually that pulled them to uh, secure, absolute, uh you know, uh, comfort for your, for, for you, for yourself as the way right to, to make sure that the reason. Busy all possible attack on your territory, right . And thats all to be something that let in the context of the cold war. 2, thats a famous or in famous adultery and abuse you to assure destruction whereby the security of the 2 sides was kind of partially a jeep through some, some kind of equity librium of terra right, if im speaking, thats also an attempt on the part of russian to take that concept of the balance of power and the that is on which the european concert was promised further or brought in broader and applied to the americans as well. Why do you think that americans played along with it for some time and now seemed to be your refusing to do so . Yes, yes. So, you know, thats, thats why i may say thats a mad on which the issue of destruction was a kind of a recreational reproduction of, of the principles and approaches the Foreign Policy that characterize the european concert. And in that sense, you know, as much as russia and the soviet union, were trying to continue that approach and international relations. And they have success. But its important to him members of this, this concept and the, the overall interaction between the United States and the soviet union in, in terms of data. And in terms. Busy of the, you know, they said he obviously invitation talks of antibodies thickness style 3 to of the, already like, and some of these then was, i would argue or other exceptional periods, right . Of parity, you know, the context of the cold war from which ultimately the United States of the, you know, diverged or a bar to it by the late 19 seventies. Right . So i would once again emphasize the exceptionality of these parity based approach. Uh, end of the day, no security at the end of that polls ultimately means that the rational, any other power has to make extra efforts do you know, bring it about without speaking about exceptions. Theres absolutely no exception to the rule that we have. Take a break in the middle of our conversation, so stay tuned to well be back in just a few moments. The, so youve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on all sides. Very dramatic, the only personally, im going to resist, i dont see how that strategy will be successful, very clear to get a time time to sit down and talk the welcome back to ones a par smith and fixed our talk caseload, teacher outcome coordinator, university of admin since now, victor, uh you have another fascinating a view onto this conflict which i havent seen many specialist voice. Um essentially its an argument that this allusion of the american self perception as a sort of the, the. A presentation of, of god on this, one of has been in fact a combination of not only geography, but also its, its a religious thinking and particularly be the influence of the calvinist ideas of dividing people into and perhaps nations as well into the elect ones. And the uh, what was the trend for the rep for a better rate . Um yes. Do you see playing out than the current politics as well . Oh, well, you know, in a general sense, yes. Uh, well 1st of all, let me save that. Of course, the United States is the only country who was politically thought of themselves along those terms, and indeed walk in 5 seamless themes in the history of britain, the from so russia, right . But when you look, for example, as the russian version of this nation, especially in special relation to god, right, that we find the bubble, the can the rest of the 17th century, right . It definitely bears of the implants of the bees and sign a political culture, in which exception elegy was confirmed as well by exceptionally great challenges, hardships, sufferings, that the nation went through. Because of course, got lots of you know, got, makes up for those for us. But make sure i have the i may be wrong here, but i think at least in the, in the russian conception of this idea that it does not presume that, you know, this exceptionality denies everybody else that exceptionality, there is no sort of aspiration to be uh, you know, the only arbiter of uh, of the world affairs. Yeah. Well thats because in addition to heading, thats kind of busy on time legacy. One thing that wait, wait, we could see of the southern century irrational was as a same time joe, graphically objectively at the referral power of the restoral nation, which very early on on the level of its political leads recognized. Its very for all the situation and began to make efforts to overcome it. Right. So as a result of these re, please, exception is this really, really just president ial, is the game diluted with a very healthy attitude of disciples of europe and all the more advanced technology, clear advanced nations. Thats the basic test and by reality, becca. And because he make an argument that the every major european power also aspire to be a head john, but its in the morning. Uh, emissions have o o. Weve gotten some push back from the neighbors. Thats just a, you know, essentially a benefit uh, sort of say, oh, so really in a european environment. Absolutely. Well, that was the case of spain, the suffered major defeating the sunday. Essentially. That was the case of frogs this up with a number of defeats of agents that are already nice and central to the point of being a major was right. And that was even the case of great britain. Right. Thats why the global power for a long time, but then of course, can the multiple to the conclusion of the 2nd world here was very dramatic, couldnt kind of declassified and termed, into a medium sized country, right . So in europe, young nations ultimately experienced that transformation with a, with a exception, that is, was kind of defeats as by the car. Reality is right. Or at least confronted with them in the, you know, very significant ways and you know, the space a more or less, more or less the only exception to the general tendency. And then of course has to deal with the fact that they get ready to go. Situation of the space is funding that is that of an island that is the size of the continents. Right. And thats something thats uh makes them so secure. I wonder if it also manifest themselves domestically progressive to look at the all day and we send a president ial campaigns. Youll always get some variation of the shell. Every clinton was deplorable as common. You know, i think donald trump talk about talked about humans. Campbell asked by the and also it made some disparaging remarks about a sizable part of the population. Do you think this sort of the division of the people of nations in to be locked and the rep from res also met if asked itself in domestic with perhaps in the current fuller ization in the United States of this us . Yes, certainly liberal progressive in camp is seen as yet another kind of secular manifestation off off off of that kind of approach. Right . Because we have to understand that it is fewer pre stein for those religious consciousness of radical calvinists was present the bubble in the 17th century in the time of the creation of the said, you call and his. But it seems that it has become secularized for sure. Already by the time of the american born independence, we can see significant secularization of that of that, of the trends, the terms and so it kind of probably youll adjust success, right the, the seems to be kind of confirmed by the actual developments. And again, as a reflection above all, the exceptionally comfortable geographical situation of the bible. Now what can i think . I understand why the americans wouldnt be so infatuated. Uh with that on orange and math, but uh, i think many countries a password a similar missed but again, claiming that the your own miss supersedes all others. Isnt that ultimately as well wishing is it may appear . Isnt that ultimately an attempt to deny all, all the, all of the nations to manifest their own destiny . Because i mean, in personal psychology we accept that each one of us is unique. Im have us, hes or her own unique way, but the, essentially what the american political doctrine try it tries to put forth. Is that no, we know the right way for everybody else. Well, others . Yes, yes, of course. I mean, one of the qualities that distinguishes human beings is the ability to recognize usually other side, just the same human beings as, as yourself. Right . And you know, that sense if we apply of the psychological categories to the level of political leads of different countries. Again, the exceptional geographic institution of United States as the exceptionally positive economic and demographic and social development of these country. A for the, you know, old and i can send, theres a century, theres not a, a made it difficult wed say for the american leaders to retake, advise in the leaders of all the countries um, that the equals, as it were. Right . Because a once again of the situations that concerns the circumstances in which the europe young leaders, in particular, historically where acting west sold so many, it has to be different from zillow. So from the United States, now i dont know if you would agree with that, but i think this very concept of the end of history could only be born on the american floor and us present. It shows it as it may be. It reminds me on that 1000 moment, you know, just the beautiful moment and essentially into just the flow of history and revenge. Others from really the old version of what the americans have believe through. I mean uh that sounds uh so impossible to even consider. And yes, for some reason the americans seem to be fully developed or to do you th