Upon those strategies in order to continue to drive down those numbers and to achieve additional benefit with respect to young people and families in the city. I would propose that we be allowed to continue in that regard, ultimately it is my belief whatever recommendation come from the Blue Ribbon Panel panel the city and department will need to reframe its priorities to meet those needs. What does school based probation officer in a mill school do . Several things officer can do is facilitate groups. Our capacity to be on site to work with the staff in the school to help problem solve to help young people and practitioners to understand the role of the juvenile Justice System and what the alternative options are. That is an incredibly valuable resource. We are not seeking to implement an informal probation or Supervision Program with young people in the schools. Its clear part mandate for the state is not only to respond young people who are arrested and refer to the juvenile Justice System to keep young people from coming to the system. Partnership with the school personnel, problem solving with young people who are in crises, direct engagement are also some of the things that we have seen can be beneficial to youth when theres a schoolbased probation officer. It does sound liking for youre 12yearold meetin meetih a probation officer it seems stigmatizing. Is there i dont know. Im not doing that work. Are they identify as probation officer . It varies by setting. When we had this in place the probation officer became and almost seemless addition to the staff in that environment. They brought with them their expertise of the juvenile Justice System problem solving with young people in crises and offering referrals. Supervisor mandelman do you have data on outcomes, success of that particular intervention . It was a very shortterm program. I can look and see if we had any evaluation that was conducted. I can share that information with you. Im also aware there are other schoolbased probation officers in other jurisdictions. Supervisor mandelman that would be interesting. What does a probation officer facilitating cognitive Intervention Group mean . Thank you for that question. This is rethinking probation. I wish i can say this is relatively new concept. It is not. Its a concept thats existed for the better part of last two decades. Essentially these are probation officers that are meeting with groups of young people in are on probation. Having conversations about their choices that they make. [please stand by] and so our anticipation was at some point, we may need to have the capacity to fill that gap and utilize those resources. Since we did not immediately return those young people back to Log Cabin Ranch, i would agree at this point maintaining the positions in the budget is certainly not necessary. However, in light of the conversations that weve been having and about the Blue Ribbon Panels to juvenile having, reinstating those positions at some later date may be of value. Supervisor mandelman and how hard would that be . Is it hard to create a position . Nope . Creating a new position just requires the approval of the mayor and the board, which i dont want to emphasize that is not always an easy task. We had instructions from the mayor this year to not add new positions to departments. Supervisor mandelman and in a future budget, the positions already exist. But its certainly available to the mayor and the board. Supervisor mandelman and how are you thinking about youve got a lot going on now, but how are you thinking about Log Cabin Ranch . How are you going to come to conclusions about Log Cabin Ranch . Do you think its going to go to a panel or what are you thinking around the use of Log Cabin Ranch . I think Log Cabin Ranch is a unique conversation in and of itself. Supervisor mandelman and we had a whole hearing on it, right . I think that beyond its most recent utilization post dispositional residential facility for youth in the yufl Justice System, that there is an opportunity to think more broadly as to what purpose Log Cabin Ranch could serve to the city. I think spending 9 million a year to service 8 or 9 young people in that facility was not sustainable. So i would love to see Log Cabin Ranch be maximized for its utilization for whatever purpose it might serve in the city. And if there is a role for young people in the juvenile Justice System and there are a sufficient number of young people who would benefit from that environment, i would love to see that, as well. But at this point, our position is we want to see what the recommendations are that come out of the Blue Ribbon Panel. And to the extent that there is some value with respect to Log Cabin Ranch in those recommendations, we would certainly be interested in pursuing them. Supervisor mandelman okay. Thank you. Youre welcome. Chair fewer yes. President yee thanks, chief nance, for waiting. Certainly. President yee in regards to the Pilot Project you talked about at the middle school, what year do you know that was approximately . Was it a long time ago or something . It wasnt that long ago, and we were partnering with viz Valley Middle School at the time. And it was between i was to say between 2014 and 2016, i want to say, but dont hold me to that. I can certainly check and get the accurate dates for you. President yee and do you remember the principals name here . What. President yee was that vincent chow . Durkee. I think it was principal durkee, and that was part of a grant that we received from the state. President yee i guess would you describe what this individual who moit be going ingoing mighti be going into middl school be doing . Whats the purpose of somebody else whos more knowledgeable in terms of skills and truth dynamic interaction . I dont know without understanding whats going on. What ive seen is when schoolbased probation officers are present is because they understand the nature of the kinds of situations and behaviors that land a young person in the juvenile Justice System, and because of their knowledge and expertise of some of the programs, services, and resources that work specifically with youth in the juvenile Justice System, that they have been of tremendous value to not only the teachers, but the counselors and school investigators. And being able to sit around the table and consult on truancy behaviors or behaviors in the classroom or borderline conduct has been extremely valuable, especially when those problems can be solved at the lowest level without resulting in a young person being referred to the juvenile Justice System. So that is where that value has been tremendous. And again, i think that when we look at the middle school ages young people that come through the juvenile Justice System, in looking at the patterns where some of these young people are being referred from, that that is absolutely something that we should do. And i might also add that we had folks from the community that have reached out to the Probation Department asking for a schoolbased probation officer being able to them in that capacity. Obviously, its not something we can do at every school, but if its something we can do for certain young people that attend certain schools, it would seem thats consistent with our goals and perspectives with respect to prevention. President yee yeah. You know, i dont know much i havent seen Much Research im sure theres been some research in terms of that particular situation. We do so much of our work, social justice issues, and whether its systems that we want people to be knowledgeable about, we do that work through nonprofits, and they find staff thats probably knowledgeable in those areas and again, i dont know if its more effective, less effective if a bona fide probation officer that shows up is this something that shows up in uniform. No. President yee it doesnt matter for the kids to see an adult and know something. Correct. And our work is not at that level. It is not limited to young people who are active on protection. And while there may be president yee no, im and while there may be people on probation in that same school, and to the extent that they are, that person serves as a liaison between that school and the juvenile justice people that are involved in the system. President yee well, im going to go out on a limb because i dont understand the issue and its presented by supervisor ronen that im not so sure that im going to come to any conclusion, but the question that i have is this this but the impact of having somebody describe some of the stuff that youre talking about is useful. I can see another pathway to that, which is to maybe use some of those resources is since you didnt hire anybody that, use some of the staff savings to actually contract out to some nonprofits, when organizations that maybe some organizations that may have some expertise or not. Maybe they could hire some probation officers so theyre coming from the community. I dont know if that makes any difference. Im just thinking out loud and not having any conclusion. So if thats the direction then that this group of people here sitting next to me would like to take it, is it possible in terms of restructuring the finances to do that . I can certainly have that conversation with our team. Im not clear to the extent that we can take salaries and benefits and redirect them in that way when they were originally allocated. Although i would imagine to the extent that the board is interesting in reallocating the resources, that there could be a pathway to get there. I think most importantly what ive heard in the question is whether or not theres an opportunity to identify someone other than a probation officer to perform the tasks and serve the role that i described. And while i think that perhaps there are some of those roles and responsibilities that could be effectively served by a Community Based person, that there are others specifically as they relate to the juvenile Justice System, the juvenile Probation Department and its work that would be better served by a probation officer. President yee and ill just leave it at that. I think im just trying to be open to the concept of yes. President yee one of the most difficult age to work with is Students High School students. Ive taught at every level, and i find that middle School Students are sort of grownup to be adults, but theyre not quite there. And sometimes, some of the kids that have the most challenges at middle school, they tend to also unfortunately drop out by the time they go to high school. So its really, to me, a crucial age to reach these students. Yes, i would completely agree. And to the earlier point with respect to the schooltoprison pipeline, we want to have a chance to engage those students in crisis before they end up in the juvenile Justice System. Unfortunately, for far too many of them, that is precisely what happened. President yee thank you. Youre welcome. Chair fewer supervisor ronen . Commissioner renn supervisor ronen yes, colleagues, kind of continuing with supervisor yees comments around the budget, we are the last line of protecting the taxpayer dollars. Over the last few years, the amount of children that j. D. P. Is responsible for has declined by 67 , and yet, the staffing has only declined by 7 . Thats a 60 difference, and i feel like we have fallen asleep at the wheel here in terms of being fiscally prudent in overseeing this organization. I never want to cut where it leads to a layoff, so were looking at where are the vacant positions in the budget where we can do something here . Of course kids in middle school need extra support. Its one of the worst times in a childs life. Los angeles just pulled all of their probation officers out of the middle school precisely partially because of that the stigma that supervisor mandelman was talking about, but because thats not the best entity to provide that nurturing, that mental support at that really, really tender age. We decided as a board i know supervisor stefani wasnt in agreement, but we want to do a radical reform by closing down city hall. If we do it all at once, thats a really irresponsible way juvenile haull. If we do it all at once, thats irresponsible. The person that were contracting with to oversee our Blue Ribbon Panel, david mohamed, a nationally recognized expert is saying probation officers should never be providing its cognitive therapy, its crazy were considering this new position in j. P. D. S budget before this Blue Ribbon Panel has a chance to make its recommendations. So i would ask that you support this today. We know perhaps the budget and lemgs lay tiff analyst can speak legislative analyst can speak to this. We know that Juvenile Hall is grocery overstaffed, and we know that we have a very big undertaking in front of us in 2. 5 years that we should not do in one fell swoop but that we should prepare for over time. So i would again ask the Budget Committee to support this proposal. Chair fewer supervisor mandelman . Supervisor mandelman and im hearing more from the department about this proposal after you digest it more as to whether this is the best idea and why. Can you make address the observation that supervisor ronen has made about the disconnect between a declining is that right, the number of youth youre responsible for in Juvenile Hall has declined on a great magnitude, but the staffing of j. P. D. Has not. What are your thoughts about how that would come into better alignment and how these positions relate to recognizing some kind of savings as the responsibility as the department seems to have shrunk. I think its an excellent and legitimate question, supervisor mandelman. I think the best way to describe and the most succinctly way to describe what appears to be a disconnect between the staffing and the numbers has a lot to do with now you is specific our work has become over the past decade. And if you were to look at what the standards were, even with respect to how services are delivered to people in custody, there has been tremendous expectations in the way that service is delivered. There have been substantial changes in the regulatory requirement associated with running a Juvenile Hall. So for example, a decade ago, young people probably spent far more time in their rooms than they do today, and as a result, the level of engagement required of the staff was far less significant. Whereas you fast forward to where we are today, where young people spend the vast majority of today out of their rooms, with the exceptions of two hours during the waking hours and ten hours overnight. So as a result of that, these officers are much more interactive, far less observational. We have multiple programs in agencies simultaneously. Weve maintained that San Franciscos Juvenile Hall is unique in a variety of circumstances, first and foremost, the level of supervision in our schools and c. B. O. S, but the fact that were not operating remotely with cameras, and the staff are carrying pepper spray to dispel conflicts and other problems that young people may have. So i would say that as the numbers have gone down, weve been far more selective in the way weve focused our attention and resources and quite honestly, the risk assessment. The lowrisk people are not finding their way to Juvenile Hall, so what is left are young people that require a high degree of management, psychiatric care, and behavior management, and that simply cannot be done with fewer staff. So to conclude as the standards have changed, as the regulatory commitment has changed, as our services have changed, so has the left of engagement and Staff Required in order to deliver that high level of care. Supervisor mandelman but you can understand tof skepticism, and you would probably expect, i would think, reduced costs, quite frankly. Yes. Supervisor mandelman of those four positions, it looks like at least two in the halls. The two probation officers none of the positions are in the hall. Supervisor mandelman are in the haul. And it represents a separate division. Supervisor mandelman and what is the balance of budget and employees in the hall, out of the hall and you dont have to answer this for me right now, but id be curious. So in our budget presentation, and id have to look back at the slide. Im going to consult with my staff. Do you have the breakdown by division, the percentage of our budget . [inaudible] supervisor mandelman you can get this to me. We can get this to you. Supervisor mandelman thank you. But there are currently 35 probation officers whose responsibility it is to work with young people who are not in custody but to work with the youth and to work with the youth as they are detained. I know theres been a lot of discussion about the cost of operating Juvenile Hall, but at the end of the day, that cost equates to about 42 an hour per hour per juvenile. Thats what were spending to service San Franciscos youth in Juvenile Hall. Chair fewer oh, im so sorry. Paying attention. I was listening and i wanted to just mention, chief so chief, i want to say having been on the school board for 8 years, and then also having been an advocate for the schools in the southeast part of San Francisco, you know, im sorry,