With d. O. A. In good faith. In addition, this is lawanna, if you look at the bottom of the page, there is a confidentiality notice, and there is a confidentiality requirement when the employer and organized labor are exchanging proposals. Those are not things that get sent out in public, just thats not how this process works. T [inaudible] the way it works is after you have an agreement, the documents that you argue with are private documents. After the agreement is reached, you can release them, but while were negotiating and this is not just the p. O. A. , all the other 30 unions in San Francisco, we do not release documents when were in a meet and confer process with anybody. Commissioner dejesus this isnt a contract for money. This is how were going to proceed under covid and whether its going to be in person or on zoom. I dont understand why that is confidential . I mean, you know i dont understand why we cant have a discussion with the public knowing what the issues are without your advice being given in public. But they at least know what the issues are and what were talking about, and then, you can go into closed session for something that you need to add thats private. But these things are not these things are just not and should not be in closed session. All right. This is the deputy City Attorney [inaudible] i certainly became a little confused as to what were talking about. Vice president taylor can you speak a little louder because we cant hear you . Can you hear me now . Vice president taylor i think your microphone is now. Commissioner hamasaki if you move towards it there for a minute. I think it seems okay. Now you get to look at my chin. So im not ive suddenly lost track in a way of what were talking about. I thought we were talking about whether or not proposals from the meet and confer process would be released to the public, which i think is what miss preston is addressing. Vice president taylor its everything thats on calendar for closed session. So what we have is the the disciplinary cases, right . So whether cases are going to be hearings are going to be in person or via zoom, commissioner dejesus just addressed. We have the bodyworn camera, the counter proposal from p. O. A. What i think is a counter proposal from the p. O. A. , and then, we have the bias policing update on where that is. I mean, we sent it apparently, we sent it to meet and confer may 20, so an update on that. Commissioner dejesus didnt said didnt we didnt send it. Vice president taylor thats why i said an update. Were talking about any or all of those documents, why those cant be made public. And so they include what commissioner dejesus was talking about, the disciplinary hearings, whether theyre in person or zoom, and if its not zoom, then webex or whatever platforms. Two things. To the extent those are on calendar for legal advice, those are attorneyclient information, and it would take a vote of the commission to release any such things. But more to the point, and more importantly, miss president is correct, under the myers milias brown act, the actions are supposed to be confidential because the negotiations between labor unions and management is positioned to encourage the free flow of information and discussion, and if those discussions are made public, it inhibits that, and its contrary to that purpose. Commissioner elias why cant we release those documents, with the p. O. A. S suggestions, but what we discuss with you, we discuss that in private. How are these documents privileged . Because theyre proposals. Commissioner dejesus but wait a minute. See, jonathan, to get to the nittygritty. Some of this is just policy. They want to change the policy language. That has nothing to do with the training or labor department, they just want to get a second bite at the apple to change the policy language, and that needs to be done in public. Okay. The exact same bargaining obligations apply, and so thats my answer to that. Commissioner elias well then maybe we should go to closed session and then after, take a vote to release the documents because i do believe that documents can be released so the public knows what the p. O. A. S edits and suggestions are, and what we discuss on how we handle them, that can be private. Commissioner dejesu i mean, your advice is privileged. I get that, but our question is about the documents. What jonathan is saying is that the documents are also confidential. They are part of the bargaining process. Commissioner hamasaki can you give us a cite that can help us, commissioner brookter, because otherwise, were all lawyers here. Commissioner brookter well, government code 3505 generally lays out the meet and confer obligation. General code 3505 talks about changing policies and the requirement to provide notice and an opportunity to meet and confer, and again, its the same meet and confer obligations that arises in regard to a comprehensive memorandum of understanding concerning labor concerning wages and the present terms and conditions of employment. And what deals with the confidentiality process is what we want to look at specifically . The government code you cited only lays out the procedure. Yeah. So what im asking for, is there a case or a statute that says this process, these documents need to be the confidentiality of them needs to be maintained. This discussion should occur in closed session. Youre asking legal advice. Okay. So lets go to closed session, and you can tell us that. Commissioner hamasaki well, i mean arent we allowed to receive legal advice if we request it in open session . Not without waiving privilege, and i dont think anyone is comfortable waiving privilege about things that we dont even as i said at the outset of my statement, in order to reveal privileged information, there would have to be a vote of the commission with four votes in favor of doing so. Yeah, waiving privilege is generally a dangerous thing. I dont want to put us in a bad position with the p. O. A. That they can take advantage of that. Commissioner dejesus im more concerned legally, policy. If you have advice on policy itself, it is not fair game for closed session. So were hiding the policy language in closed session because you want to give us some advice on that, and i just want to divide it up, to put the policy out there with the policy changes. Vice president taylor we all agree with you, petra. Commissioner dejesus what im hearing is this is all just blanket. All of this has to be in closed session at the same tail we session. Vice president taylor well, i think we can go to closed session and still vote to release the documents. What i want to get is what the Legal Authority is for the confidentiality, and so if thats legal advice that we get in closed session, fine, lets get that legal advice, but we can let the public know what that authority is if its legit, and if its not, we can publish the documents. Commissioner elias i agree, i agree. I think we can go to closed session and discuss it, and after, we can vote for what documents we need to release and why. Commissioner hamasaki i think just on the advice but i think the discussion, as everybody has already said, should take place in open session. Commissioner elias but what im saying is we have to go whatever the statutory documents are that these cases are confidential, we need to hear that. So we can discuss that in closed session. Commissioner hamasaki i still think if he can cite a case or a statute, that would be super helpful. Yeah. Thats what we all want to hear, and thats legal advice. Us asking for a legal basis is asking for legal advice. That doesnt prevent us from going to the public and saying hey, this is the statute or case. We agree with it or we dont agree with it. Commissioner dejesus can i just say, management decisions or management managierial commissioner elias so i guess im going to make a motion to go into closed session so we can figure this out and then we can deal with it after. Clerk all right. So we have line item 6, which is a vote on whether to go into closed session. Vice president taylor yeah. Thats what you have. You have a motion and a second. Clerk all right. On the motion to go into closed session Vice President taylor im sorry. Dont we need Public Comment . Clerk yes, we need Public Comment. At this time, members of the public are invited to vote or im sorry, make Public Comment online item 6, on voting whether or not to hold item 8 in closed session. 4084189388. Meeting i. D. 1467731245. Pret press pound, and pound again, and then starthree to enter Public Comment. President taylor, we have three Public Comments. Vice president taylor okay. Clerk good evening, caller. You have two minutes. Yes, this is gloria berry again. Im calling specifically to address the matter of the point given by the city negotiator about the confidentiality explanation at the bottom of the agenda. I dont see an explanation. I see that the items that are not confidential have been distributed, but other than that, there is no explanation on that, so perhaps in the future, we could get more explanation on that. And then, i want to reiterate why closed session is a concern to me. Its because and im not speaking to any current commissioners. I just can speak on the past, but i am concerned about who is selling out, who is a puppet, who is on this commission for further political gain, and so forth. And i think during these type of meetings with the p. O. A. And the and the Labor Relations and whatnot, we can learn certain information. I understand this is typical for labor, but if a policy as simple as just being changed, its a policy versus if its illegal to do it, thats different. So if theres any policy that can be done to stretch it as far as we can to make things transparent, i think the public will really appreciate that, and thank you for meeting for five or five or over five hours. Vice president taylor thank you so much. Just to be clear, we are not going to be meeting with the p. O. A. Tonight. This is with our lawyers. Its on the agenda. Vice president taylor yeah. The agenda makes it very confusing, but just to make it known, this is not a meeting with the p. O. A. I looked at the agenda, and its not quite clear for us to tell. Clerk okay. Next caller. Good evening, caller. You have two minutes. Umm, yeah. I would like to say that i strongly oppose the notion of going into closed session, but if you do choose to go into closed session, i think its absolutely imperative that that whatever happens in closed session does end up being released to the public afterwards. But, you know, i i before, i was one of the people who thought that all this stuff about Police Structure was a little bit overblown, and i not only trusted the p. D. , but after listening to tonights meeting, i honestly dont feel very comfortable with all of this secret closed session stuff. You know, i i think that maybe, you know, those people talking about corruption, they were probably right. So if you want the trust of the public, you should think again about all this closed session business. And having as much transparency as possible, its the best thing to do. And the stuff about labor stuff, yeah, i dont know. It seems yeah, i just dont understand it, so thats i guess thats all i have to say. Thank you. Vice president taylor thank you. Next caller. Clerk good evening, caller. You have two minutes. This is Catherine Shay from district 5, and i just wanted to say [inaudible] im going to echo what everyone else who has called in before has said. Its just a little bit concerning that something that items like this would be discussed in closed session in the climate that we have in a city where black and brown bodies have been subjected to so much disproportionate violence, and all we heard for the last 4. 5 hours is how much paper pushing has gotten done, and no change has happened. So i think at the beginning [inaudible] at the beginning [inaudible] the public would care and show up. We were trying to, and its the idea that, you know, you would spend 4. 5 hours when something in Public Comment when Something Like this is on the agenda and now happening at 10 30 p. M. On a week night is really deeply, deeply damages the trust, the very little trust that you have with the public and your community to begin with. Thank you. Clerk and all right. That is the end of Public Comment. Vice president taylor thank you. Clerk all right. On the motion to go into closed session [roll call] Vice President taylor i would note that the agenda is confusing. It makes it seem like were meeting with the p. O. A. , so lets be clear about this. It makes it seem like the p. O. A. Is part of this discussion, and theyre not. Clerk all right. Commissioner taylor, you have three yeses and two noes for the motion. Clerk line item 6, vote whether to hold item 8 in closed session, San Francisco administrative code section 67. 10, action. Vice president taylor im sorry. What is this . Clerk item 6, vote on whether to hold item 8 in closed session, San Francisco administrative code section 67. 10. See, that was the thing, after we went into closed session, we could vote to see what we could release so that after closed session, we could share with the public the closed documents. Vice president taylor now we have no legal advisce, and now we dont know what to do with the documents. We still dont have anymore insight into that what process is. We still dont have any Legal Authority for why this thing is supposedly confidential. Commissioner hamasaki i would suggest perhaps that we should agendize it for a public discussion. That would be my suggestion. Vice president taylor we cant agendize an item for a legal discussion. What i need to know what the authority is that we cant release these documents because otherwise, i want to release these documents. We still need to go into closed session to get legal advice. Im with commissioner elias. We can go into closed session, get legal advice from our lawyers and release these documents. Now, were hamstrung. We cant do anything. Commissioner elias well, i really want to know, which is what we want to talk about, is what created these protocols. This is a huge issue, and we need to talk about it, and thats the only place that we can talk about it. Commissioner dejesus okay. All right. You know what . Can i change my vote just so we can do this . Clerk just for clarification, online item 6, its a vote on whether to hold item 7 in closed session, not item 8. Commissioner elias yes. Vice president taylor okay. So commissioner dejesus, are you changing your vote . Commissioner dejesus yes. Clerk well, we need a motion and a second. Vice president taylor another motion . Clerk for line item 6. Im going to renew my motion with respect to line item 6 is it. Vice president taylor yeah, its 6. Clerk okay. So do you renew your motion online item 6 to go into closed session . Commissioner elias yes. Vice president taylor second. Clerk so on the motion to go into closed session online item number 7, [roll call] clerk you have four yeses, and the motion passes. All right. So we are now going to go into closed session. Commissioner dejesus, im not able to bring you into closed session with me from the phone call. Are you able to go back to your desk and try your microphone again once were in closed session . Commissioner dejesus okay. Clerk thank you. Clerk vote to elect to disclose any or all items discussed in closed session. Commissioner elias ill make a motion, and this is a motion to d Vice President taylor ill make a motion, and this is a motion to disclose on friday. Commissioner elias it should not a motion not to disclose the appropriate attorneyclient privilege materials, after which the other materials will be disclosed on friday. Vice president taylor thats the motion. Is there a second . Second. Clerk Public Comment online item number 8. Members of the public are now allowed to call in for Public Comment. Call 4084189388. Press 1467731245, pound, and pound again, then press starthree if you would like to provide Public Comment. We have one Public Comment. Vice president taylor okay. Clerk meeting caller, you have two minutes. Yeah, hi. I would like to express my disappointment in the commission in having this closed session. Although i do appreciate that you have made this motion to disclose these documents, and i do strongly encourage you to disclose documents, i understand that there may be some things that are confidential, so its certainly reasonable that whatever has to be confidential for whatever attorneyclient reasons should remain confidential. But anything else absolutely needs to be made public. And another thing is i find it very strange that you have this closed session and then it comes back open again. So i think it would, you know, make sense to set a time to have a closed session so that, you know, members of the public who might want to listen to the remainder of the open session, you know, know how long the closed session is going to be closed so theyre not just left hanging after midnight. Well, i mean, they wouno one kt the meeting would go on until after midnight, so that theyre not hanging on until 12 50 at night, and they would have a time frame. So i strongly encourage you to disclose and consider giving the public sort of a time frame in which you will post your closed session. Clerk thank you, caller. All right. Item 9, adjournment. Action item. Vice president taylor well, we havent called roll on the vote to disclose on friday. Clerk so on the motion to elect to disclose on 710, friday [roll call] clerk Vice President taylor, you have five yeses. Vice president taylor great. And for the record, a couple of items on the closed session agenda will be continued because the closed session went longer than we anticipated. The personnel exception and Body Worn Camera item will be heard next week. Clerk all right. Line item 9, adjournment. Commissioner hamasak so moved. Second. Clerk all right. On the motion to adjourn [roll call] clerk you have five yeses. Vice president taylor all right. Thank you. Good night. Fire Commission Regular meeting wednesday, july 8, at 9 02 a. M. This is a remote meeting. This meeting is held by web ex pursuant to the governors executive order 2920 and the fifth and 16th supplements declarin