Youre trying to say that we two after not going after smuggle. Just talking about undocumented presence. These people didnt this state has invented putting charges on people saying they are smuggle themselves across the border. I strongly disagree with that. We dont invent. These cases have been appealed and it must terd th mustered the famous 1070, that was uphold a couple of points and i understand some were thrown out. Sheriff, with all due respect, a lot of these arrests since 2008 that you made in these work site enforcement raids, a lot of these are getting overturned because theres been an outcry about how these laws and charges have been trumped up. They havent been overturned. Youve spent a lot of resources and taxpayer money investing in these work site raids and hold on, let me finish. And the point is that eventually there is no result because the cases are getting dismissed. Weve spent so much money going to court to argue these cases and in the end theyre getting dismissed. So its really i find to be a horrible waste of resources. Sheriff firm, the money doesnt come out of my budget. The legislature gives me the 2 million, it doesnt come out of my budget. Number two, i took an oath of office to enforce all the laws, we have state and federal laws which i was enforcing, until they took the authority away. Because i was doing too good a job. When i mentioned you should be punished, the attorney general of the United States who is investigating me used the term punished. He use the word punished, people going to jail should be punished. Im not going to backtrack. They should be punished when they go to jail. His constituents certainly like what hes doing, they keep electing him over and over and over again. Come on, they were electing me for 15 years with ten city change gangs. Ive been in office 21 years so dont think i need this to get elected. No, no, my point sheriff is that you have been elected over and over again, given what you everything that you have been doing. Clearly your constituents approve, or at least the majority of your constituents approve of what youve been doing. Thats what i was saying to dan. With his constituents supporting him, the personal argument about whether in some cases hes overstepping his bounds legallily, certainly he has a lot of public sport. We can talk about that. I think its tricky. Certainly the sheriffs polls have, you know his popularity has dwindled. I think that originally one mickey mouse poll. Go ahead. Originally the sheriff was winning his elections by an overwhelming majority and just this past election cycle do you know the margin of victory for this last election cycle . I won by 8 . The president won by 3 and he said that was a i got a double mandate. I would just use that to explain that i think that the his attempt to arrest undocumented workers, it maybe it originally pleased the voting population but i think in the end its back fired. His numbers have dwindled. Nothing has back fired. Regarding the sheriff being in that position where hes the Law Enforcement officer and hes tasked with the need to you know enforce the laws, i kind of empathize or sympathize. Im not a Law Enforcement officer, hes put in a tough spot. The laws are what they are. As we know not all laws are constitutional. Not all laws are going to stay that way forever. So what were finding now is the sheriff is choosing to enforce the laws on the books but why are the laws on the books . That goes to a broughter case. Exactly, thats why we made a film about the more complex issues and try to understand all the people involved. Sheriff from 2004 and 2007 you and your jails were sued 2150 times. In the same time new york, houston and chicago put together were only sued 43 times. Im not going to crirt size youre justcriticize, it is not 2100 times. Lets say 2,000 times when they dont like the bologna sandwich. Im not going to argue that. I run a greating with jail system. Some of the lawsuits were relatively frivolous. Sure they were. He said he doesnt know if the sheriff really believes in lock of parents of a nineyearold child. What do you say to that . Well, you know in my 50 years of Law Enforcement, unfortunately most of it was federal drug enforcement. I had to lock up parents when the poor kid is in the back crying. I had 8500 people in jail, when they say i separate the families, why dont they feel sorry for all those 8,000 families that are separated, why do they complain about the immigration situation . Because these are hardworking people who are playing a roam in our economy and they are role in our economy. They are helping our economy to thrive. Forget the economy. These are hardworking people that i want to be a part of the economy. I think its a tragedy when a little girl cant be with her parents. Sheriff i want to ask you what about everybody else in the jail . What about the other people in the jail spraited . Feel separated . Feel sorry for them too. I think daniels argument is they had committed greater crimes. These i. D. Thefts, these are felonies, serious crimes. Two quick questions to both of you. You sheriff are the child of italian immigrants. What do you think of Immigration Reform nationally . You know im telling you i said it from day 1 and dan knows this. When you if you want to change the laws do something from the white house to the congress. Do something about it. Stop saying that the board before we do anything else that is a copout because i spent 25 years at the border on each side. Youre never going to secure the border 100 . Let me just say that the biggest problem with using local Law Enforcement officers, to enforce federal Immigration Law is it breaks a trust with the community. And its a serious problem that needs serious rethinking because its a misguided attempt to control something that weve said is a federal law. You know you cant being here undocumented. Be here undocumented. But when the local Law Enforcement is tasked with enforcingenforcing that, then tt call the local Law Enforcement. You lose afternoon entire community of people. Because they feel the sheriff is going to ask them for their papers. The final word is this where do you think we get our information from . We get it from illegal aliens. Theyre not afraid to come forward and report these types of crimes. Schaeffer joe arpio, daniel devito. I know ca katherines parents st some time in custody but two americans airs sunday at 9 00 on al Jazeera America. Our associat social media ren producer hermella ill tell you more, the heart of it is food. And join us,age consider this and on our google plus and facebook pages. Al Jazeera America brings you more us and global news than any other American News channel. Find out what happened and what to expect. Start every morning, every day, 6am to 10 eastern with al Jazeera America. Gltion spying on. Spying on enemies and friends, gentlemen do not read each others mail. This week we learned that the National Security agency is doing a lot more than gathering phone lists and reading emails. According to a document linked by Edward Snowden, the nsa monitored phone calls of 35 world leaders, including angela merkel. Im johnny damon by p. J. Crowellp. J. Crowley, and duncan. P. J. I want to start with you. Assistant secretary of the Bush Administration told the new york times, and i quote, obama and his snelings service intelligene the targets, does he do it . Thanks to Edward Snowden we got caught . Well, it is awkward when its your hand thats caught in the cookie jar. Look, nations do spy on each other. We use Intelligence Services to understand you know the world. I mean think of it this way in the last 30 drais her days in wn we had this political circus over the debt, the government shutdown. And obviously if the United States driven over the socalled fiscal cliff it could have taken the Global Economy with it. So i strongly suspect that there were a number of Intelligence Services particularly in europe where leaders were asking their experts find out what the americans are going to do and its in the countrys interest to understand what will happen somewhere else that affects your interests and others. So nicholas, coork accordingo lemond, the french newspaper and instrument in leaking mr. Snowdens information, the government gathered information on 70 million of french phone calls. The brussels summit was about this. Listen to french prl president hollande. When in is spying on certain level and to this extent spying that can affect all citizens including a certain number of european leaders we need to put a stop on it. Is he focusing on the 70 million calls or his anger focused on that they were listening into his calls . Friends were listening and reading his mail despite what secretary said. But the tone has changed since june and july because its not about governments spying on governments but Civil Liberties of countries that are allies. In france and in germany, especially in germany of course, as chancellor merkel said, its not just about her, but about all german citizens, you have a foreign power that is capable of listening on private conversations and doing something that goes way beyond counterterrorism. Suspect that what intelligence is supposed to do to find out what might hurt the United States . I think the important question here is where is the tros been lost and why has it been lost . And in this case for example, apparently susan rice told chancellor merkel that president obama was furious to learn that her phone had been tapped. If he didnt know, why didnt he know . Whos in champ . Whos charge . Whos watching the watchers . Pj, athats what i wanted to know, shes head of natural security advisory to the United States. Her counterpart in germany called, furious about this. She said, president obama didnt know about this. Whats going on. Is this an intelligence apparatus completely out of control or people are not talking about things or is she protecting her boss . You are talking about a particular tasking at a tactical level. That is not something that the president is going to necessarily know. The president will give guidance to the Intelligence Community, i need to know about these kind of things. And kinds of things. Then the Intelligence Community goes about doing what it can to learn but pj isnt knowing about the phone calls of our closest allies something that the president should know about . I dont think that you want to bring those kinds of issues directly to the president. I think its useful for the president to be able to say and truthfully that look, i didnt know and ive directed my Intelligence Services to knock it off. Thats actually how you solve these kinds of problems, when they arise. So you know the fact is i think the president s giving strategic guidance to the Intelligence Community. But how they go about this on a daytoday basis is really something done at the agency level, not at the executive level. Thats the way it should be. Chancellor merkel said, here is her quote. We need to have trust in our allies and our partners. I repeat, spying among friends is not acceptable with anyone and that goes along with france and germany, they want us to sign a code of conduct on intelligencegathering that would mirror the five yies compact since the Second World War and they have agreed not to spy on the u. S. For france and germany to have that i think it would be a plus. Will it . I think it could very well happen because of the fact of it not happening would for example help derail other Transatlantic Partnership agreements. Lord ismay, said the compact kept the russianed out, and the americans in, to exercise control over what the americans do. So having the americans in the u. N. Security council and in nato, means that the europeans can exercise some guidance and not having the u. S. Going off in its own direction without european consultation. Pj do you think this is a serious scandal or just political posturing . I dont think those are mutually, there are genuine political consequences here and obviously some adjustments have already been made and will be made in terms of drawing that line. You know what is something that everyone understands, you know works to everyones benefit and what in the view of one country or another, goes to far. These adjustments will be made, youre already seeing the signals from various leaders that they understand this is a real issue. They need something from the United States as nicholas was just outlining and there will be some adjustments made and over time this will get resolved. It will take some time and the other dilemma we have here is obviously in the drip drip drip nature of this snowden, you know series of revelations we dont even know if were near the end of it, still in the middle of it. This is something that politicians will have to manage for an indefinitely period of time. And pj what snowden has done in the end has certainly hurt his country in a number of different ways. Sure. You can say on the one hand the fact that he has released details of the intelligence budget, if you are interested in transparency there might be some benefit there. He has exposed some things or put at risk very important intelligence cooperation that certainly serves the interest of the United States and likewise serves the interest of our european allies and others. So i think as long as the leaders can keep this kind of fire wall and work the politics and the politics has meaning here but also make sure that the foundation of mutual support remains intact, the kind of intelligence continues that has benefited both of our regions over the past dozen of years. And you adjust where this line is between privacy and security. And merkel and hollande signed on, a lack of trust could prejudice the necessary cooperation in the field of intelligence gathering. Thats what pj just said. There are two sides to that, and pj is right in what he said, an extremely seamless intelligence gathering antiterrorism system that is in place with britain and certainly very much with france, thats one thing and the operational aspect. But the political aspect is that in the communique of the European Union summit have also hit on americas sense of insecurity. It is something that will play very well in the public in the United States, that will say if you dont fix this, American Administration you are going to make your country as well as our countries less secure. Ever since 9 11 the one thing the americans have been worried about is their security at home. By referencing Homeland Security i think the european politicians have taken a very important stance to force americans to do something about this. But intelligence gathering, pj, a quick question, will it damage Something Like the relationship with pakistan . Pakistans head of state was here this week talking to president obama and a lot of information came out about how they supposedly were sanctioning our drone activity in pakistan and thats crated a big mess in pakistan. That could hurt us there, couldnt it . Well i mean the u. S. Relationship with pakistan, is comparable to the disfavor with which americans view the congress. Im not sure it can get much worse. Actually, that could potentially turn in the other direction. Obviously theres a lot of activity going on for which pakistan denies it has plays a role. That could actually be the case where a little more transparency will be beneficial for everyone concerned. Pj crowley, nicholas duncan, really appreciate your insights. More information gathering at home. , writing the a crrveghtsella train from washington to new york when he got on his phone to talk to National Security reporters, tom matsy was sitting close by, liberal activity group, move on. Org. He began tweeting some of haydens comments. Im happy to be joined by tom massey. When did you realize you were overhearing a former cia director talking to the press . It was quite a while before i realized. I got on the train at 3 00, didnt send the first tweet until 4 20. For the first hour i thought he was somebody else. It wasnt until i took another look back before i realized this was michael hayden, former head of the cia, most notably under president bush during the National Security controversy. Sounds defensive, what administration was he claiming to be from and why do you think he sounded defensive . Well you know i put that term in quotes. You know, quote, on background former sr. Admin officials, he was giving instructions tot reporter how to cite him in a news story. He wasnt part of the Obama Administration except for part of a few days in transition. Leon panetta was appointed to replace him before obama was sworn in. Confusing, was he pretending to be part of the Obama Administration and i dont know the context of the other conversations. Here is another tweet about president obamas blackberry. Hayden talking about a famous blablackberry now. There were other comments he made that i heard that were related to things like a different, quote, authority, that the cia or nsa had which i took to mean things like authority for renditions or you know the kind of the black sites that the cia was operating, also those are terms that he explicitly used during that. And he was talking about the transition period between the Bush Administration and the