Hello, im ray suarez. When the polar vortex plunged places into unusually bone chilling territory, americans nodded knowingly, pointing out that small amounts of snow cause havoc in some places, where minneapolis detroit and denver just shake it off. But how much of it is not brought on by a natural event but taxpayers and home buyers, was plenty of notice enough to engineer one of the Fastest Growing metropolitan areas in American History . Was it the snow or an unwise toy to grow . There were helicopters in the sky and authorities on the Ground Racing to help stranded drivers along a debilitated southeast coast and it was all over some two inches of snow the storm essentially crippled the american south, leaving drivers locked in traffic jams and their children sleeping on gym floors. Governors issued states of emergency. I was in my car 18 hours. 18, almost 20 hours. 24 hours later, the blamegame isen in full throd l. Why werent they more prepared for this . In georgia the governor took the blame. We didnt have enough preparation to encounter the storm in the time it came. For not notifying the governor quickly enough. I might made a terrible error in judgment. But as the past bucks flew a per ma perm afrost of problems remained. Middle class migration of the 60s and 70s as people flemed to complete to plant communities. Atlanta, of the 6 Million People who lived in the metropolitan area, fewer than 10 live in the city itself. The rest live in suburbs with their own local governments and mayors. Its a common story in the sun belt. In the next major city over from atlanta, montgomery, alabama there is a likability score of 25. In 2012 there was a proposal to build alternative transit for atlanta suburbs including a rail line downtown but it was rejected by twothirds of voters. Many suburban it it i it ite cb of this problem and the part that the hurting so many folks is people being stranded primarily on our highways and interstates right now. That is the toughest part of this problem and that is the problem that i alone with our state leaders are getting ready to solve. Were going to get folks out of these cars. But people bemoaning weathered induced paralysis says, it is not just the makeup of infrastructure. This isnt the first time that snow has brought stand stills to southern states. And ice storm also grounded cars and thus daily life to a halt in 2011. Goes the built environment have something to say how we cope with unusual events, have we created a network of communities places to work, shop and relax that workforce us and work for us in all kinds of weather . From chicago were joined by John Norquist, and chris clemek. Professor of history, specializing in urban america and robert brugman, professor of history at the university of chicago and author of sprawl, a compact history. John norquist, you were the mayor of milwaukee for years, a place that gets its share of snow. Were you sympathizing with the folks in atlanta that saw what was falling and saw what was happening . Well, some really serious things happened including some deaths. So theres nothing to feel good about or anything. I think northern cities have a lot more experience with snow. The big thing about atlanta though, it is so dependent on a freeway system that is so overbuilt, that it tends to fail when you need it the most. At peak traffic hours, every day it tends to fail. And then when you have an episode like an ice storm which theyre not used to dealing with, the freeways fail. Whereas, the mayor was absolutely right, the secrete grid in atlanta was largely completely productive and useful to people. Because they were able to do their job and get the salt out on the streets. And the streets tend not to overload as much as trying to put all that traffic in these giant roads. So was it a lack of options . If you said oh man, im getting off this choked, stopped highway, could you thread your way home through mile after mile after mile of surface street . You could. Although atlantas d deemphasizd its street grid over the last few years. I mean the state of georgia has spent so much money on these large, gradeseparated roads that its you know its really become the pattern. If you look at meuf houston when hurricane rita was about to come, freeways came to a complete halt. There were fires that happened. There were 50 people that died in the traffic, huge traffic jam that happened. So these roads work fine at 2 00 in the morning generally, they work fine when theyre not stressed with peak traffic. But if you look in europe and canada for that matter, theres almost no freeways in the large cities, in canada they stopped building them back in the 60s. And one of the reasons for that of course is in canada theres no national highway program, no National Transit program. So they spend things they spend their own money on what they think will add value to the cities. So all the cities in canada have good transit and somehow miraculously, all the roads connect between provinces without an interne interstate hy program. And in america, our roads dont work well in a crisis. How different as mayor norquist mentioned and even our north america neighbor, canada. I think thats an interesting question because we tend to think of the United States as the distinctis distinctively sun nation. That may be one of the ways the United States may or may not be exceptional. The first nation to reach a kind of suburban majority if you want to measure that. We urbanize a little later than our comparative industrialized countries and it was oant the 1920 only the 1920s that the majority of americans were living in cities. Generation or so later. In the 1970 census confirms that more americans live in the suburbs that live in the rural areas or traditional urban areas. Thats the path weve been on in a kind of aggressive way. I think there are a number of factors that you know we can point to as catalysts for that. Some are technological factors, you know cheap cars, cheap gas. Some of them are Public Policy factors, you know, things having to do with subsidies for all sorts of infrastructure, the most famous of course being Highway Infrastructure that we were just talking about. But the little less visible because it doesnt get funded from the federal level, other kinds of infrastructure, utilities, sewerage, water, schools, public investments that have underwritten a certain pattern. Theyve been public decisions that weve made. But underneath all of it i think are a certain set of cultural impulses that predate any of those policies that we want to talk about. And those cultural impulses arent as uniquely american as wed like to think. If we look at the late 19th and early 20th century canadian suburbs are growing in a very aggressive way without any of that sort of infrastructure support that i was talking about. All the Major Industrial centers, paris, berlin, london theyre sprawling tao too right through the too right through the beginning of the 20th century. But when the Public Policy diverges we go in a different direction and that leads the United States onto a different sort of path. Professor brugman, youve looked at this, is it the personal choice and sort of accumulated set of millions of americans deciding to live a certain way . Or sit really governments and leaders or is it governments and leaders offering precooked set of choices that brings you a three hour commute across the Atlanta Metro . I think its both government and individual choices but i dont think its specifically american. Virtually everything thats been said about cities in like atlanta is also true of cities in the northeast, and true of european cities. If you look at paris you see the same thing. You see that maybe one out of five people in the paris metro area lives in the city. And four out of five live in the suburbs. Most of those people in the suburbs live in Single Family houses or very small apartment buildings. Most of them take the automobile for their daily needs. So and the paris and europe generally are building a tremendous number of highways. In fact theyre getting new car ownership rates higher than we are and building more highways than we are. We actually stopped building most of our roads nt in the 60s and 70s. Sprawl has become the predominant choice for middle class people throughout the world. Its not just true in ufs and europe. Its u. S. And europe. Its choice hold onto that, i want to get specifically to choice because the people in atlanta this week that we saw stranded on those highways seem to have very little choice about how to get around and their kids had no choice about how to get home from school and on and on and on. So the availability of choice is something that were going to take a look at when we come back. This is inside story. Al Jazeera America is a straightforward news channel. Its the most exciting thing to happen to american journalism in decades. We believe in digging deep. Its unbiased, factbased, indepth journalism. You give them the facts, dispense with the fluff and get straight to the point. Im on the ground every day finding stories that matter to you. In new orleans. Seattle bureau. Washington. Detroit. Chicago. Nashville. Los angeles. San francisco. Al Jazeera America, take a new look at news. Welcome back to inside story. Im ray suarez. Bad traffic jams are a way of life in washington, d. C. Where our studio is loaghted and count located and countless other studios in the United States. Thats what happened this week in atlanta and it got us thinking about the consequence he of sprawl in our country and John Norquist in chicago, you wanted to break in on the professionals point. The only reason automobile ownership is going up in europe, if you count the communist countries where people couldnt afford to own automobiles. Western europe is very similar to the u. S. , bmts are dropping there is spreading, we should distinguish between spreading and sprawl. Human beings are always going to look for somewhat more space. Bob brugeman and i both live in dense areas. Some people want a wig yard, i dont have any problem with that. But big yard. I dont have any problem with that. But if you look at the difference between europe and the United States, in europe theyre eliminating freeways. The only grade separation in pairist, the autoroute poppedou, will be gone next year. They have a necklace of light rail lines that theyre building around pairs. , the notion that europe is becoming more autocentric is ridiculous. There are roads that go between cities not roads that go into the middle of the metropolitan area. And in the u. S. These roads that go in the middle of the metropolitan area cause more problems than they solve. They reduce the value of the neighborhoods where theyre built and they arent being build new anymore, for the most part. There are a few cities where they are. The trend is definitely more towards transit, urbanism. I think atlanta can benefit from that trend. Professor, you heard Robert Brugeman before the break, talk about sprawl, that ends up us with the environment that we are. Atlanta and all of georgia in fact had a choice to make and they turned down by a sizable margin a set of initiatives where they would have taxed themselves. It was called a transportation special purpose local option sales tax or tsplost, and they decided not to tax themselves to build these links and here we are. You do end up with an auto dependent at least the periphery. Yes, i think autodependency is an important piece of this. But i think in some ways is a knockon effect of the deeper cultural and political inclinations and choices. And you know i agree with both of your other guests in a sense of i think there are some deep impulses that you know human beings have to improve their physical surround beings and their setting and i think you know when you think about cities theyve always been a kind of tension within them i think between se centrifugal forces. All sort of economic cultural sexual you name it theyre marketplaces. They also concentrate negative sorts of effects, vice or pollution or crowding. So people have always had some inclination to strike out for a little better spot. Maybe not too far. You know for most of Human History that was only available to the smallest elites so they had urban piedaterres and wurntiooncewe had this opportuno urbanize, acquaint victorian villages, i think that was the crucial dna mutation that said well have a separation of work and residence and people will begin to sort themselves out according to their ability to purchase transportation and lodging. So you know to me that was sort of when the dye was cast in a deep way. The next big set of choices that we had were in the mid 20th century when politically americans had become the first real automobile nation. Cars were enormous luxury at the turn of a century less than a generation later there is one car for every five americans. We can literally get everybody in a car on if road simultaneously. We made a lot of those as market choices. And european even near european comparatives like britain, france and germany wont get any close to that Market Penetration of cars until the 1970s. These choices were more important than the individual market choices. We chose to put into place Public Policies that basically prixgd through housing prixgd througprivileged, Single Familye ownership communities on the periphery, and predominantly at least initially in racially greategreat segregated sortsf appearance. The subsequent effects of them kind of limited the range of choices for other americans. Were going ogo to a break for just a second. But Robert Brugeman for a long time the retailers were telling customers, drive until you qualify. Thats what they did. They droif far away from where they worked, far away from the center of metropolitan areas until they could afford a house. Now theyre findin finding thatr cost of transportation has skyrocketed. Its hard to undo that, isnt it once youve undone it . Well, i dont think realtors had to convince people. I think people made that choice based on the available opportunities that they had. But to go back to atlanta for a moment, lets do a reality check here. Atlanta is very little different from l mow most American Cities, denser or less dense. Atlanta has a Public Transportation system thats actually right in the middle of American Cities. It doesnt have as much Public Transportation as new york for example. On the other hand it has much more than many other cities. And the average commuting time in atlanta is relatively low, its about half that of the new york metropolitan area and much faster commuting times than in paris. So were, i think the idea that somehow atlanta is out there at the edge or u. S. Is different from europe is completely belied by the actual evidence. Well come back after a break. I want to talk more about what happens when the weather goes wrong. Were going to take a short break and when we get back well talk about whether our optimal systems are also our operating systems. This is inside story. Senior aids. He has told the if the that he could lose power here, if he doesnt quash the rebellion. So very different messages from very different sides. Reflecting the kind of tug of war between east and west over ukraine. All of the violence there so he may not known exactly what to do, but welcome back to inside story. Im ray suarez. Our love affair with the automobile changed the american landscape. More and better roads brought the country closer together while simultaneously isolating us in separate communities. Were continuing our conversation now on the complex impacts of sprawl. Still with us John Norquist, chris klemek and robert brugman. You heard robert bruman put atlanta under the pack. Should it operate normally on most days or when its under stress . I think there is a distinction, two different arguments going on here. Should there be giant grade separated freeways in the middle of cities, do they help cities function better . The answer to that is no. If they had to spend their own money, cities wouldnt build them in the first place. It comes from outside, from the state and federal government and so they build it. And when they need it the most, it fails. So what you have is a malfunction of the system. And it gets heightened by the fact that atlantas a warm weather state for the most part so theyre not used to dealing with snow. I really you know, i think it would be about for atlanta to have more transit. I dont think that atlanta needs to try to be manhattan. I think its okay if somebody wants to live in a Single Family house 20 miles away from town or whatever. The question is what do you want to pay for . And in the United States, all this money has been spent on roads. And it doesnt necessarily add value to cities. Look at detroit. Detroit has built every freeway the michigan d. O. T. Has dreamed up and it doesnt have a lot of congestion. It doesnt have a lot of congestion anymore but its depopulated. Its a place that is just covered with these freeways and they havent helped the city at all. Theres only one store theres only one store in all of detroit that has more than 50,000 square feet. And thats a heavily subsidized whole foods that was just built. Let me turn to robert brugman then. Should we be making smarter choices, better choices from what we build here on out . I certainly think smart is better than dumb but for people who say smart growth is the answer meaning more transit, i think that more transit is not necessarily the answer. I think that calling the detroit, thinking that detroit has failed because of its highways, is ridiculous. Its failed because of a lot of bad policies but not necessarily those transit policies. Now you but professor recently in recent past, cities as diverse as los angeles and Salt Lake City have put in transit systems and theyve been