Be there parents but some parents who've been allowed unsupervised contact with their children have gone on to home them sometimes with tragic consequences this woman whom we're calling Lisa lived with her partner for 8 years they had 2 children and she says the abuse got worse all the time it was small pushes for the doors throwing things at me then it cept up to you in a car journey threatening to crash into a wall and take my seat belt off and then it gradually stepped up into this attack that rarely I feared for my life after she and her partner separated Lisa said he was allowed unsupervised contact with her children at weekends even though he'd served 8 weeks in prison for assault by beating so I get them back on Sunday night and it take me to lease Wednesday to calm them tantrums throwing stuff smacking me and one of the comments on never forget when my daddy does that so why can't I Lisa suspects that her ex partner physically harm their son you may find the details upsetting there's an incident that sticks out my mind went to a Mexican progress day with my children and my son was on the table whispering there's the challenge sauce that daddy uses some like what my daughter to run this idea every time he's cheeky he gets cherry sauce put down is marked. Which kind of . It just made me sink into my chair because it explains why he's so poorly when it comes to how. It made me recall a time I attended the chief piece with the bent to Suffolk s.n. The blood twenties coffin and it just made me break because that was the final straw for me it was Lisa interviewed for b.b.c. Stories her former partner is no longer allowed to see their children unsupervised . And really Hilton a senior policy officer at the Children's Charity n s p c c told me of cases where children might get caught up in what's now called coercive and controlling behavior they might be asked to punish that they abuse parrot my locking them out of the house in the rain will be told to throw their dinner in the bin because it's not been cooked properly or shout at their parents and getting cold in the cycle they might also feel that they have to defend the parent who might be being harmed whether that's physically stepping in or looking after them after something might have happened and what effect does it have on the children domestic abuse has been shown to have profound emotional and mental health impacts on children young people particularly if they don't have access to any kind of service of the therapeutic support children who experience domestic abuse potentially vulnerable to having unsafe relationships as they get older and that's why we really think that you know the programs that any species he runs for example domestic abuse recovering together which is about therapeutic support with a mother and a child to overcome the experiences that they've had together is one way of really trying to address these kinds of potential impacts. Emily Hilton but there are 2 sides to every dispute speak to divorced or separated nonresident parents typically fathers and some will tell you that their former partners have alienated their children against them or made groundless allegations of abuse but Greg founded support groups for families going through divorce or separation they're called only mums and only dads what sort of incidents to see come across we often hear of instance at the fridge where both Mum and Dad will arrive to go to the fridge for milk of the same time and it'll just snap they'll be or push on a shelf and we hear dad's talking of an isolated incident being labelled then family court is domestic abuse but parents shouldn't push fathers shouldn't shove shouldn't swear no they shouldn't none of us should ever at the very dying embers of a marriage when there's a lack of trust and people are scared and frightened it's not abnormal for there to be Riyadh incident but I suppose it's difficult for the family courts they see what you say is a minor incident to push or a show of but there may be a symptom of something deeper and that might expose a child to danger if that child spends time with their parent. You know absolutely right and that's why one of the things that we've been asking for is for courts to have a speed year process of finding out some facts I do not see why it takes family courts judges months to access things like police reports and social services reports because it's certainly in the child's interest that if there is domestic abuse at home and one parent is a danger to the children that ought to be found out really very quickly how well is the system working for some parents it's working appallingly we've had contact with a mom of the last 5 or 6 years who is trying to raise her daughter but keeps on being taken back to court because Dad wants increased contact on this mom has been very open to contact always has been but this case and I'm not exaggerating when I say it has gone back to court over 30 times what particularly worries many of the parents who speak to Bob Greg are false allegations typically against fathers he gave me an example mom stopped dad seeing the children. Dad applied to courts mom then responded to the court with various allegations of abuse against her and also one allegation of abuse against the child that Dad had on one occasion. Physically abused the child. That. Father didn't see his children for just over 6 and a half months eventually it was proved as far as possible from our family court judge that that was all made up and did contact resume after that it did but it's right that in circumstances like that allegations of abuse are investigated. It's absolutely right but let's do them very quickly Bob Greg during the summer officials from the Ministry of Justice invited anyone who's used the family courts to resolve contact disputes to give their views on how well the system was working a panel of experts is currently considering their responses alongside other evidence Lucy Reed is a family law barrister John's chambers in Bristol how likely are the courts to allow contact when they have been allegations of domestic abuse most cases will end up with some form of contact whether that's extensive staying over at dad's house type contact or something much more restricted supervised contact or letters every so often supervised contact might be the parent and the child meeting at what's called a contact center contact center and there can be various degrees of supervision most contact centers are not strictly supervised there's a sensible adult around and about keeping an eye on a number of families we call that supported contact but there are cases where the court will say this is simply not safe it can't be done safely or it's not for one reason or another in the best interests of the child for this to happen and courts do tend to try to maintain contact because generally speaking the starting point is courts think some contact with a parent is better than no contact at all yes the I mean that's the generality but the court has to drill down once it knows what the facts are to what's right for this particular child at this particular time knowing that there are both risks probably in relation to contact with a parent who's got some history of domestic abuse but also potential benefits and that can sometimes be really difficult for judges to make a decision about judges are human they make mistakes but are they doing the best they can I think that most judges that I have appeared in front of as a lawyer are doing the best they can but judges are working under extreme pressure at the moment and that problem. Increases the risk off human error or just things not being spotted off some really thought 3 Lucy Reed who also chairs the transparency project which aims to make family justice clearer and if you're concerned about these issues you can find details of organizations offering information and support at b.b.c. Doc u.k. Forward slash action line you can also hear recorded information free of charge by calling 080-000-7707 extension 7. If parents can't agree on contact then as we've heard a court may have to take a decision for them but how does a judge decide when it's in the best interests of vulnerable children to see a potentially abusive parent so Andrew McFarlane is president of the High Court Family Division which makes him the senior family judge in England and Wales the gold standard is for the court to achieve an outcome which is the best for the child the child's welfare is the paramount consideration but where there are allegations of abuse then the court has a duty to investigate those allegations and then if their locations are found to be true then they have to evaluate whether it's never the less safe enough for the child to have a relationship with the other parent how easy is it for the court to make that evaluation it's often very difficult often the only witness is are the 2 protagonists one word against another and that's it's often very important to wait and we sometimes have to wait quite some time for material to come from the police or some other 3rd party because often that's very important eyewitness material to assist the court the court has a set of guidelines for evaluating these matters they were brought in about 10 years ago but they've been revised twice in the intervening period in order to give the courts as much assistance as possible in evaluating the evidence that comes before them he said. Anything that can be done to speed up the process I'm sure there is the volume of cases in the system is immense the number of days on which the family court now sits undertaking family work is 91000 court days a year and the best research we have is that allegations of domestic abuse are made in about 60 percent of all family cases and so the volume of work is such that we can't avoid having delay in processing the cases but the delay itself builds in problems typically the court will suspend any contact while the investigation takes place and so if that takes 345 months then the child hasn't been seeing the other parent in that time and if their Legations are not proved or not proved to a high degree you think about a further problem of restarting contact because of that delay and that in itself may harm the relationship between the parent and the child it may well do and sitting in the seat I do I speak regularly with women's agencies who are rightly very keen for the court to take domestic abuse very seriously which we do but equally I meet a group such as Families Need Fathers but there are a reputable and recognized group of individuals who feel that they've been badly served by the family justice system who speak about Delay who speak about the court's inability to get to the bottom of the fact finding process quickly how does it feel to the individual judge having to decide a case like this these are difficult cases it's quite easy to look at a newspaper headline and see abuse given contact and think well that should never happen but these cases are much more complicated than that when something goes wrong after the event we all look with hindsight and sometimes see tragically that the court's decision or the decision of the parents has been dangerous when everybody at the time will have the. It was safe and we just need to keep pushing and pushing at it to improve the perspective in the training of the judges but also increase the ability of the court to get information from the police and from other agencies a further problem that we have is that a lot of the people who come to court now with these problems are representing themselves legal aid will come to a person who makes an allegation but the other party is often a litigant in person and so the court is having to draw out of those people who are not used to being in court just what they want to say about their children Sandra MacFarlane president of the High Court Family Division. You're listening to law and action with me. Maybe not. Making life. Easier if it costs 24 points. Ok now we've got Kelli with us here to answer our family law questions so Kelly what's the overall attitude of the law towards children seeing fathers being released from prison or who are currently residing in prison welly I think an important fact that light to start with Old Course is a prison just outside Liverpool it has its own radio station but there's more to radio all course the limousine beat the same president doesn't automatically remove your parent toast sponsibility our parenting responsibilities gained if you a Kelly isn't a practicing lawyer yet she's a student before we hear how she ended up questions in the prison radio studio let's take a quick tour of all course which is privately run by g 4 s. I've come here to find out how a traditional closed prison can open the minds of its inmates Our guide is David McCully who's worked here for more than 20 years this was billed originally as a cat's a prison cell from the main body of the prison open so you get to the prison walls we've got various barriers we've got the razor wire we've got Gates you've got railings we've got walls we've got x. Rays infrared so we're still equipped as a council and these things need to be maintained all the time but it's now a category b. Prison what's the difference between category which is most secure and can't be it's based not so much on the offense but on the offender so if you are high risk prisoner It's got a potential in the forms and the means to escape are probably classed as a category one copies are more people who come locally probably a lesser offense but still with the potential to influence maybe an escape or something Ok well it's let's go on and see where we get. We have prisoners who are gardeners they have also met how to manufacture the stuff you can see got to live a bad spot and these for me are to scrap left by forthright and somebody is cut that out here using their new laser printer that we've got so we could have lots of contracts here for the local businesses and such like a beehive over there he yeah I also keep easier as well we use that as a therapy program to get people the old prisoners out and get me involved in the regime in the prison so I'm the only is absolutely gorgeous at all course prisoners learn all about the b.s. And the birds Pete Tinsley works in prisoner education these are the birds of prey the European Eagle owls are a small. Couple of one else. Yes So there's quite a few in the let's take them around the prison I'm not so use them as therapy birds as well so many prisoners are anxious to not see pet them so the guts or to you know come from the front so the bad can see the hand and things like the fly them on the West pitch do they come back yet there's been a couple of occasions where they haven't bought generally the lots of got the well trained we heard earlier from one of the lads a prisoner whose 1st name is Elliot when he introduced me to Bella the buzz that he trained it's a great spirit because obviously this is taught in new skills I would have never known on the out what's the training involved training of all just the hands of you know it's a man who like this and the gloves she so you see here in cons are. Stroking her feet and on the floor of the wave flying she's quite new She's only been in 7 weeks so now it be flying her from gloves on a lead and see what progress to free fly in her eye because she doesn't know she's in prison she doesn't she had a bad life before the show you made a life better for rescue she was she was taken from a nest and she she was young she said he soon I'll choose really really scared she came such a long way in the 7 weeks. If used to be agreeing with you yeah she. As a grave I wasn't quite sure who was rescuing whom Ben who's serving a longer sentence than Elliott teaches other prisoners about birds of prey. Where did this Saturday morning cause the lights come down and just take the time and learn how to do it and then from that then go into a flaw in a work in the bird probably the birds have been tricked wrongly by other people on the out so that to us with rehabilitate them back to being looked after weak as much out of them as they get out of us for show. When all course was visited by prison inspectors 2 years ago they reported a downward trend in fall and anti social behavior which they described as highly creditable levels of self harm while still high were also decreasing They said that purposeful activity work education and training was excellent for a local prison. And there's nowhere to go it's time to listen to that a laid. Back in the prison radio station just an office really with microphones and 2nd hand computers I met George he tells me that he and his fellow prisoners are expected to produce as much as 5 hours of content every day all of which is played out several times by prison staff 24 hour precaution shows 24 hours a day 7 days a week we do all types of show all different genres of music things that are with the prison interviews yes we do interviews music you people. Are in prison and then also the staff as well how do the prisoners Listen to this radio program do they have Oreo Quitman in the rooms they have T.V.'s so comes through the T.V.'s presumably they've got a choice between you and outside broadcasters Yes they have both it's local here isn't it and they associate with it as well so I think that's why they listen to. People because principle point. Ok today in the studio we are joined by soem very special guests and I'm going to let Jenny introduce them all thank you very much yeah my name's Jenny I'm a cheater at the Open University and I'm here with pick the final here last Leigh is the presenter and the law students are taking part in one of the station's most popular programs each year but all of the last couple of years now a group of open university students will come in. It's part of their degree course and unset questions have been raised by lots in the present so give them an opportunity to ask legal questions that they want to ask and combi case specific general questions then these guys go away research announces come back and then we'll interview them on air and again it's something to show for the lots and that it's a lesson to me because it's that question's been on sense what sort of questions they ask her vast range could be anything from or is Paca what is Bill Parker is the proceeds of crime not 2000 and so so they will ask about law and how it affects their family they'll ask or sorts family law questions questions about the Hague the shape how detention curfew tog absolutely any question that they once these guys will go why research them and give your actual cases of lost and so on Saddam they get it right yes to be fair they do we're privileged in this job it was an off make a big difference speaking to people from the outside world just makes a big difference to us what the sentence guidelines for the fence since this 2 lakhs of legislation in the criminal justice Immigration Act 2008 and the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and they contain the student giving advice here is Sarah cooling she's just been awarded a 1st class law degree by the Open University and is now hoping to train as a barrister who was it like for her visiting old course for the 1st time it was very scary I must admit walking in your quite nervous escapes in this razor wire and you don't know where you're going in you have to check your bag makes you not taken anything in that you're not allowed and this is a men's prison of course absolutely but you see on the t.v. You think that's what it's going to be like but it's nothing like that and then coming in here and in the education department I was blown away and in terms of the course the idea of you providing the answers to questions put by prisoners how well does that work