Hi I'm Kim Jacques Annette's and this is the conversation program that explores the many different ways women are living life on the own terms across the world by bringing together 2 women who are connected by something that connection could be a career a passion or in the case of my guests today a calling both of them were compelled to leave behind the lines as they knew them and to choose instead to embrace poverty celibacy and of B.D.'s by joining a religious order with me oh mother Hildegard of Benedictine one who is from a stray DIA but is now based in Tyburn convent in London where she's lived for 15 years and she joins us from there hello mother Hildegard hello and at the other end of the conversation is Sister tree seek Amy who is at the start of her journey as a nun she took 1st phallus with the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati last year in the United States Hello sister Tracy Hello welcome to you both Mother Hildegard your part of a contemplative order and you always did 9 Could you just explain what those terms mean close to 9 is basically a nun that doesn't go out of her convent she only goes out for banking medical voting or on basis of the congregation now a close ally that is you living within the monastery and you're serving God within your monastery and the people actually come to you so we don't go and visit our families but families can visit us once a month they can write letters to us if they wish to and we can write back to them but we live within the precepts of the convent all the time and it's not for everyone and that's when when you come in you have to be tested with you can do that and live that life but if you care and it is wonderful sister Tracy you are part of an active order can you just explain what that means absolutely Yes So so my life looks my days. Look a lot different than yours do mother Hildegard So an active order is women who live in the world live in community but live in society I live right now with just 2 other sisters we came together after I made vows and we live in a house in a neighborhood that is very low income lots of diversity of race and background and language and we chose that because we we want to be in places where we think Jesus would be more here today in human form so I work as the Latino ministry chord nater at a local parish we have a large population of Guatemalans mostly immigrants and so I spend my days with these people who have really difficult lives and who aren't always welcomed by our country and so a part of my work is trying to make a welcoming place for them in our church now I'm always really fascinated when I hear someone talking about religious schooling and how they go about responding to it but it held God could you describe what that cooling was like for you and was it a feeling was it with a science what was it exactly around $2829.00 I started looking out the Catholic faith then what I did was thinking about being a nun but I wasn't ready so I put that aside because I wanted to get married and have children lots of children actually but it kept going on a kick persisting and everything God kept putting me in my place wasn't quite working out relationships and a career you know I had my prince I went to Mass but I certainly wasn't religious non-material yet so I ended religious life about 35 it's got to be something else in life so I went in to find out about it for me I had to have a habit and I knew that weren't many around now just explain what a habit is for and have it is a religious garment that you way you have a skeleton top underneath and it ripping. Sense a religious wildlife a devout wear life and a penitential wildlife because you don't have all the fashion you see so when you look at us you identify us separate conditions on it because I'm human and I had to have a habit to say if I'm going to be anonymous on a look like a not so I had written to a contemplative order type in convent and they sent me some material and I ticked off all the boxes by a few and I thought well what I don't know if they can teach me what I do not can be improved and what I not supposed to do well I can be debating it not do it. So I lived in 1st I entered it and it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole entire life all of that for its mother had to go because I want to come back to that experience of adjusting to life in the convent but Tracey I want to bring you in here could you tell us was there a similar nagging feeling for you was there a sense that there was something you needed to do yeah I think I would describe God's call as persistent nagging as well it was something that 1st came to me when I was 22 years old I had gone to Ecuador as an international volunteer when I 1st graduated from college so I was sitting on the beach in Ecuador and I felt something in my heart it was a voice but not a voice out loud say you should be a nun and I kind of turned my head to both sides trying to figure out who had just said that to me and of course nobody was there but it was kind of like My 1st sensation I guess in prayer that told me that maybe God was not in me towards something but that initial call was not enough and it wasn't supposed to be enough it was the thing that sort of made me start looking into it like you said Mother Hildegarde you know you started checking into this idea I was terrified because I had never considered being a nun or sister in my entire life most of the nuns that I knew which was a very small number were much older I remember thinking in high school we had a sister come and talk to us and I thought she could be my grandma and you know nobody does this anymore young people don't do this anymore but because I felt that nagging that persistent nudging from God towards something different I started talking to people looking into it and one of the women that I talked to was a former nun herself and so I went to tell her all of these things I was feeling and she said you can date the idea of being a nun you know just as if you you meet someone that you're interested in romantically. Hopefully you're not going to marry them after the 1st date you take time to get to know them you take time to see how you feel in the relationship she said it's the same thing with being a nun learn about sisters talk to them pray about it and so it actually ended up being a several year process kind of like this this growing awareness or knowing deep inside myself that I finally was able to say yes and how old do you think and when you made that final Yes. I think I was 25 when I originally entered the community and what helped me make the decision at that point was I actually was dating someone very seriously while I was discerning like you mother Hildegard I dreamed of getting married and having a family I think I was most interested in the getting married part of that time a lot of my friends were getting married and I really like the idea of having an intimate partner to live life with and so I had met someone while I was volunteering in Ecuador a good good man just faithful and kind and joyful and fun so I kind of found myself falling in love with 2 things at once you know this life I was living with the sisters and this person and I finally moved to Boston where he was to spend some time being near him and really through being with him on a daily basis I discovered how deeply I loved him but I still felt that nagging It was like I had this clear picture of what my life could be as a married woman I loved his family I loved him but there's still felt like something was missing and it was it was very painful but it was for me I had to have that experience of seeing it clearly and still feeling a longing for something else to be able to say OK God I can say yes to that because you're calling me to it was not a really difficult decision for you it was I can still feel in my body you know I felt that pain in my abdomen and I I cried often for months after the decision because he was such a wonderful person and actually when we were talking about me making that decision he was the one who helped me see he looked at me after we had been talking for several hours about how I was feeling all of these things and I didn't want to and he looked me in the eyes and he said Tracy you know what this means and I'm thinking no no no don't say it and he said you're going to be a beautiful sister. But you know if you could be a jerk about this whole thing it would be a lot easier to let you go but he was still he was so kind and supportive throughout the whole thing because he himself is such a faithful Catholic so yeah it was it was heart wrenching and it took several months to get out of that stage of sadness and then as I began getting deeper into religious life I could feel my soul settling a little bit and my heart relaxing and I started to feel that sense of joy and now I can say Oh God I understand why you know I I get it it was hard but this is the the right life for me. Mother Hildegarde did you face any sort of similar situation a sister Tracie where you had to face this sort of dilemma I left a lot of friends behind and my father never spoke to me for 2 years he wouldn't accept that I had entered he thought it was a prison and that's how we talk and he wouldn't talk to me for 2 years that was. Living the life because I've never actually lived with other people I've always had a one bedroom flat at home but and I had to get used to there was other people around and there in the same boat is what I was we were learning to live a monastic way of life which did help but it also brought some crosses because our religious life this time to speak in times not to speak and all my friends said to me we know you're devout but can you keep silent and I kept saying well I can learn and they had their doubts about that my friends but I knew I loved the life and it is time to keep silent when you used to communicating all day and talking all day working and with your colleagues and everything like that it's very hard so there are times and places that you need to talk and if you need to ask in structure and that's fine but she checked around the houses out and that took a lot of time to coach about right and the census. It's very worldly and you've got these nuns that are holy and devout because that's what you think that when you come mean but when you are while you critic out there not that holy they just working to be holy just like you so it takes a lot of adjustment and I found in my own life commitment I mean I remember crying to God one time and why would you do this and why won't you do that and I was in a fit of state and I was kneeling down prying and all of a sudden it was just like a flash a word kind on my mind and it said. You're serious now I don't know I stood up which was not the custom by the way I looked around to see who was in the chapel was there any meaning go out and I couldn't believe it and I looked up and I knew down to 2 years I am serious and things started to change I think to call it how long do you think it took you to get to that point of commitment. From 6 to 8 years that's when I started really taking off it took me that long because I just didn't have it but the calling was saying I really identify a lot with what you said about coming in thinking all these people were going to be these perfect holy women you know and I had to be transformed to get up to their level and then moving into a house with sisters for the 1st time in finding out oh my gosh these women brush their teeth they eat they sleep they go the bathroom just like everybody else and they have conflict you know they argue people get on each other's nerves living with other women who are very very different from myself who have our different ages come from different backgrounds and different places and different cultures and making a life together committing to a live together is not always easy but it's where that that depth comes from in religious life so I just I find it interesting that in different ways. It happens to both of us you learn from each other not to what to do and you learn what each other you can do it's a life that you want to take hold off and even though you live in an order even though you have a rule God does not take out the individual or the character of the person you might time it down and reshape it a little bit to be more monastic but it's your character and he will grow up with that do you see it as a family type of family for you sister Tracy it is it is a family and within the house we are the ones who support each other when things are going tough pray for one another so there is this deep bond of love that shared within us and with our families and friends we sort of see it as this continuum of relationship you know as when you get married your in-laws become your family but you don't lose your own family so when I come to religious life my family's kind of all become a part of each other a reminder that you're listening to the conversation the show about women by women for everyone today I'm exploring a topic I find completely fascinating women who choose to join a religious order and my guests are mother Hildegarde who's been a Benedict a nun for 15 years and she space that type been constant here in London and sister Tracey Kemi who is yet to take a final vows and she's based in the US with the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati mother held account in this environment where you're living with women from different backgrounds and very close quarters has there ever been a really sticky situation where you thought you know potentially this isn't for me anymore you know as a group of women as one lady said 70 nuns and all those hormones I couldn't do it but now there's no excuse for you might have a few that are yelling and carrying on blowing off steam we have what we call auditory and want to wake up our order touring which we can talk about a superior about anything we want but the prayer is she's in that position she governs after us so if we've got a problem of the system we can let off steam that way but there are times where you just you're below and you know and you're finding frustrated and have it out but that's part of life human and then you probably joys and move on. What about accepting the Mother Superior so far is he because you came from being independent women and now you have to accept some his authority was that tricky was that it's a decision and not a feeling if you don't like use a period that's fine because you human might be a character but she's not always going to be your superior All right so every 4 years for us could be a change of superior because we have what we call a general chapter and you might get moved around you know always going to get on with everyone but you see the good in the person you see cross in the person and you get out over it I mean if she's not asked you to you and always not to do the Arab revenues within our rule that you can go to get that resolved and it is it's hot but it's loving and it's rewarding and it's exciting at times when you know it's quite interesting but it's not for everyone and can you mind trying at that if you look in the world everyone changes a job nearly every to use and I want to stray when I was in my twenty's you know if you stayed in a job for 2 years you classed as a you know a long time we host a dinner at our house so women who might be interested in religious life can come and see what this life looks like because a lot of people don't really know what religious life looks like I think there's so many stereotypes harmful stereotypes that are out there these days and so when younger what kinds of stereotypes is to Tracy So like when I entered my family was afraid that they would never see me again that I would become a totally different person and it's just not true like you are saying Mother Hildegard becoming a religious sister if that is your vocation it makes you more the person you are called to be it doesn't change the heart of who you are God takes you who you are and guide you on this path and of course you know my family is a very important part of my life they were the ones who raised me to feel called to this vocation so of course I'm going to be allowed to be in. A relationship with them for the rest of my life you can just jump in and ask just think these also who and I'm nice with the idea of women living in a community without men that idea I don't see that necessarily in the United States I think people have more unease with the fact that we don't have sex we take a vow of celibacy we take a vow of poverty we take a vow of obedience and that's pretty countercultural And I think people are probably uncomfortable with that and to me one of the saddest things and I don't know if you feel this way Mother hold a guard but I feel like the giving up part of religious life is kind of what gets out there people here religious life and they think oh no sex no money no freedom. But who would do that if that's what it really was about you know I think in any value you're saying yes to something you notice something so when you make a vow to marry a person you're saying yes to that person for the rest of your life how beautiful how difficult how wonderful and you're saying no to marrying other people so it's always a selection and when you make the vows to religious life of course you're saying no to something but I wish people knew more about the yes's the joyful parts of religious life that make people make those vows so I think a lot of people look at the religious vows and think they must be limiting but if we're called to make those vows they're actually freeing you know my vow of celibacy isn't easy I'm a 30 year old woman you know a lot of my friends are married and having children of course there's that longing aching in myself for that kind of connection but because I have made this evolve celibacy I am free to love in a way that maybe my friends aren't I'm free to respond to God's call because I don't have a husband and children that are my primary responsibility my primary responsibility is to God and God's people and that is freedom for me and that might be uncomfortable or hard to understand for some people no I actually agree with you because not living with a. Men Men find that very hot that women are independent of being under a man and they can't handle and they can't handle a woman being intelligent more than them they're so used to being the head of the family the man is the boss and to find a group of women living together and living a good life and many thing a lot of a lot of men can't handle that I think it's authority issue but you know that I become a by the Get to know you like my father wouldn't speak to me because I was going into a prison but I had good an obvious mistress who stayed right to him so I commissioned to write more to him and keep writing to him and when my mother passed away in 2001 and I hadn't taken to prevent those thing he rang me up and they were divorced at the time and he was overseas we couldn't contact him and he said to me you know the situation between you know your mother and I wasn't the best but she was your mother and I'm sorry and then he said and by the way I got every bit of the letter that you gave me and all the cut out and he said thank you to me I had similar experiences mother Hildegard of people in my life maybe not as outright as your dad but feeling really nervous about me responding to this call my grandma for example she knew the person I was dating right before I entered religious life and she loved him I mean of course she did and so after I told her that we had broken up and that I really was feeling strongly that God was calling me to this different life she said she supported me but every time we talked on the phone she say and did you talk to your old boy