Mustapha karkouti of gulf news and jef mcallister, an American Writer and broadcaster. A British AmbassadorTo Washington once told me as we awaited the first meeting between the then british Prime Minister and a new american president that they were fated to get on wonderfully well. He meant that whatever the personal chemistry or lack of it the totality of the relationship between the uk and us was so important that it had to work out. But how well does that work with theresa may and donald trump . It seems to me the most interesting thing about it is that it took place within the first few days . Yes, i think its good that we were the first foreign head to be in to see the american president. I think the quote from your former ambassadorfriend i think the quote from your former ambassador friend is right. These are two countries that need to work hard to get on and i dont think there is any secret that we struggle somewhat under president obama, who is not as well disposed to the british interest as the now president seems to be. I suppose my point is this whether you agreed with brexit i suppose my point is this whether you agreed with brexit oi whether you agreed with brexit or not, that is now the directional travel that our country is on. President obama and his preferred successof president obama and his preferred successor Hillary Clinton set themselves square against that. So even if you voted against brexit and are an ardent remainer, you should now be happy that we have a president who looks optimistic and positively at the path that we are set on. You may dislike donald trump or many other reasons and those reasons may be valid, but on this it is good fry country that it happened and went the way that we did. Do you see this, as some British Press sees it, asa British Press sees it, as a danger that a Prime Minister gets too close to an american president . To take another example, it was said that tony blair got too close to george bush and that lead us close to george bush and that lead us into the mess of iraq . When i watch the Press Conference, i thought the Prime Minister came out of that exceptionally well. And if you think about anyone whose policy positions changed, it was trump, not may. One week ago he was saying that nato was obsolete, with encouragement of theresa may it is now 100 relevant and he supports it. Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Well, i wish i could share your enthusiasm, of course he is the president of course he is the president of the United States. Theres no use denying it, we have to work with the man. On the other hand as a friend britain, i felt, i was shivering, just seeing them Holding Hands which the british media made so much of it. It is on every single newspaper. It is on every single newspaper. It was a temporary safety measure, i believe, they were walking downstairs. He was being polite. He was being polite. But ijust dont see Angela Merkel being led the way that she was. I thought it was a bit embarrassing for britain. And also, that Press Conference, the ft said that there was considerable warmth between the two. What i saw was considerable awkwardness. She was walking on eggshells of course and she managed to get him to say, at least not on camera, that he was backing nato 100 . That is a victory in itself. But otherwise, she was going there, for few words from the president about the trade deal, but article 50 has not been triggered yet so shes not actually cable or starting at entry negotiations. You can have talks of course but he didnt say anything that trade deal apart from brexit was the most wonderful thing. To pick up on alexs point, wasnt the most interesting thing about yesterday that whatever one may say about donald trump and a lot has been said all over the place about him, he appears to be pragmatic enough to listen to people who actually know what they talk about. If he listened to mattis, for example, he is somebody with a long career in defence, it is very clear that he doesnt think that torture is a good idea. I know, but you cant actually ignore the fact that an american president says that personally he thinks torture works. It is difficult to ignore. But you cannot ignore the fact that he said even if he thinks that he will defer to someone else. I thought it was an interesting point. Yeah, well, its still democracy until it becomes a dictatorship. What do you make of it . I think theresa may left washington saying to herself, i cannot trust this man. I dont think she will trust this man. Because he is a man who changes his mind every day. And he is a loner in a way. When he stands up in the Press Conference and says, look, i am rich, very, very rich. As if hes saying, i dont need this job, i dont need this money, so im doing you a favour to be here in this position. You cannot trust this man in a way. Yes, of course he said im with you 100 over nato, but give him two or three months, is he going to stick to his position . I doubt it. And im sure theresa may doubts it. That is interesting. Youve seen lots of president s come and go when you were at house. It has been quite an extraordinary week for donald trump . And for america. It is such a blizzard of things you can hardly even remember how it began. The speech at the cia, where he is standing in front of the wall of the fallen and uses it as a long talk about his own wonderfulness. Where he says that the news media made up his differences with the intelligence agencies, which was a lie. To people for whom not lying actually matters because that is theirjobs, trying to figure out things. And to say that of course there was tremendous voter fraud and that was the only reason why i didnt get the popular vote. That was another lie and he said that to them. That was seven days ago. A long week. And the Executive Order that was in favour of torture, which has now been rescinded. But there is a law against it anyway so the Executive Order is irrelevant and james mattis was against it. Theresa may, i think it is important for the president and the Prime Minister tried to get on, yes, there is a little bit of the supplicant trying to rush in, but its fine. This is an important relationship. If it goes well for the us it is a Force Multiplier for britain. I would point to the relationship that blair and bush had in the days after september the 11th, in which it actually worked really well. Blair would go To Washington, he at the second highest Approval Rating of any public figure in the United States and he would come back to europe and all of the european Prime Ministers would line up to have dinner with him because they wanted to understand what bush was saying and he was kind of the ambassador. It all went wrong when he became too supplicantory over iraq and he didnt pull back. So that is a danger of being a democrat in a conservative thing. You can get eaten. I think the worrying thing about this visit is it looks like a normal visit, but trump is not a normal president. He does not believe in the liberal International Order. He believes in himself, in getting attention for himself. If you look at all of his biographers, they say he has never had any friends. He doesnt have any long term friends, he discards his wives when they are not useful to him. He doesnt believe in alliances and long term building. He believes in transactions and beating the other guy in a deal. Here we have britain and its given away its european home and is looking for deals. Are you saying that these are two leaders who have got no mates . The british dont get on with The European Friends And Donald Trump doesnt get on with anybody . But there is also a system in which they used to operate. I think if Vladimir Putin now takes advantage of say, lessening some sanctions, i dont think trump is going to opposing like obama did. Meddling in the elections and doing things that are strategically very concerning, i think this desire for britain to be paying all of this attention to trade deals within individual countries, and the smallness of its ambitions it is going to feel like it is the wrong choice but it is going to fit in with trumps. There is force in a lot of what you say. I agree with trump speaking front of the wall and it was crass. But i disagree with you, in exception with results. Im not saying you particularly, but the left often says that the result we have had is so bad that it transcends normal systems. Well, in democracy sometimes you get results that you dont like and each side has to live with that result. But im so angry that this cant be normal, and therefore the result whether it be voting to leave the European Union or donald trump being president must somehow be invalid. I dont think it is invalid, i think it is worrisome it creates risks, and risks of the dissolution of the International Order that has triggered peace and security for so many years is a risk. Both playing as not isolationists, a im most important sandbox. I think it is a new world altogether, a new political environment, i think everybody is trying to find his or her place. Like theresa may. How to deal with this man. Its a very worrying thing to do, because listening to his speeches, the day before, in philadelphia, the mere fact that she was, repeating the fact of. The two great nations, the historic background and reminding. The other point that i wanted to make, im very interested in your countrys politics, we all are, but in the end im british. So im most interested in how britain fares. Our Prime Minister didnt choose this hand, she neither voted to leave the European Union nor did she have any say on trump being president. But shes dealing with the hand she is being dealt and im very proud of the way that she is conducting herself actually. One of the things i have wanted to bring up, it has been many years since i have read the art of the deal, donald trump says, or his ghost writer says, Something Like you make a better deal when the person youre dealing with is desperate to make a deal with you. Jeff was talking about tony blair and bush, blair missed an historical opportunity at the time, because he did have leverage over bush and he was close to him and he could have done something, which he didnt do, and that was a historical mistake in many ways. He could have actuallyjust before the invasion of iraq he would have been able to tell bush, look, this was a mistake. But he and powell could have had a senior conversation. But britain is very important on the chessboard and can make a real difference, but what i saw yesterday in washington was a british Prime Minister who of course needs to do what she has to do, but there was an element desperation. Im a tory and i love blaming tony blair for anything, on that one it is the job of the new Prime Minister to make sure that we are close to our closest ally. I want to point out that some of the basis for the cooperation is intelligence and defence. Many things are part of this, regardless of who the Prime Minister is. But british spending on its own defence has decreased, the number of Aircraft Carriers and planes on Aircraft Carriers, the number of submarines, the size of the army. Actually its getting to the point where britain is not gain to be able to make the kind of contributions should there be a gulf of land war. And i think that is important for the future. Its not that theresa may does not have as many cards in her hand. A lot has been made on this side of the atlantic about these Executive Orders. Im tempted to ask, so what . Didnt obama sign an Executive Order eight years ago this month . Closing guantanemo bay . And whatever happened to that . What im trying to get at is the totality of the relationships between britain and the United States also involves theresa may, or whoever the pm is, talking to the republican party, that went down very well. It is notjust about the president , and whatever you say about trump, his Freedom For Moneuvre is more limited than people think. I think that is fair if you look at the Executive Orders, they are mostly Public Relations statements, they are intended to throw red meat to the base and signal a directional travel and signal a Direction Of Travel but they are not legally valid because they contradict legislation or because they are easily revokable or because there are conditions easily revokable or because there are conditions that havent come to pass, or they say things that are already law but people dont remember that obama has already done about Immigration Policy for instance. This is a common tactic of new president s, to issue a flurry of Executive Orders. I think we have to get used to, trump doesnt care as much about the substance. Obama was a Constitutional Law Expert who cares about doing the right thing. What trump always cares about is being at the centre of the news and getting adulation for it and if it takes Executive Orders that dont add up, or end up in the heap on the floor he doesnt care. How is he viewed in the middle east in particular in the gulf. I was talking to a Gulf Specialist and they say do you know what, there is a fair wind behind trump in gulf nations partly because he recognises the threat as they see it from iran and that is a big story in the gulf . That is true, i think it would please the gulf. Would please the gulf people in general. Of his stance on iran. If he does what he says, they will certainly be relieved, no doubt about that. This is only one point. But you need to think of stability in the long term, in the entire region, not only, assuming he launches a war if you like or attacks, hitting the Nuclear Facilities or whatever. That is what hes talking about. Will it be limited to that part only . Would it threaten the entire region itself . They are worried, a lot more than iran, about extremism, fundamentalism in the region itself. This is probably the First Priority as far as politics in the region. Is trump prepared to do anything about that . He did say a few things about muslims just a few days ago yesterday. And also his team started talking about building a database of muslims inside the us. And barring people from certain countries like syria where you are from. Exactly. And that made a person like Madeline Albright threaten to convert to islam if he does that. Is that a bit of froth . I dont think it is froth, we should listen to people around the world. On the other hand, he is far less interested in intervening around the world, it will be not very interesting to liberal interventionists but it would be much more agreeable to people who dont want interventions from superpowers. On the other hand, obama dropped hundreds of thousands of bombs, on muslims, and was widely regarded by the Foreign Affairs lobby as a hero. Donald trump wants to restrict travel, and he is xenophobic. Donald trump wants to restrict travel, and he is islamophobic. There is a difference between these two things, would i find it more difficult to get a visa in the United States or get a bomb dropped on me . Trump is not stopping the drone programme. How do you know that . He hasnt told me, but it is essentially inevitable, that is what the entire establishment has been looking to do. And there are not very alternatives if you want to be a tough guy and if you want to do things from washington. The danger is, lets say that he makes the deal with russia, sanctions gone in return for cooperation. The problem with russia as a ally against terrorism is, they have created a lot of people from chechnya who go to syria because of the tactics they have used. They kill eight times as many people in their bombing as american strikes, and if you look at trumps Executive Order banning muslims, it is from countries, none of which sent any of the 9 11 bombers, the most it affects is iran. As one Iranian Foreign policy official said, americans have created more people going to isis than iran has. They have to create this notion that you are actually increasing radicalism if you team up with the russians. Your point about the orders and restricting travel is reasonable, the venn diagram between countries that have sent citizen behind 9 ii and the countries who are banned, do not overlap one bit. Saudi arabia is of course the largest single one. And i wanted to return to your russia point, because on the one hand as they showed in syria, the russians, brutal and effective, argued only on their narrow interpretation of what you think should happen. The americans and indeed the rest of us. Well meant and Well Intentioned and utterly ineffectual. You have got to pick your preferred