Ona the Trump Administration is intent on a radical reset of Americas Energy and environment policies. The implications will be profound on everything from Fossil Fuel Production to Climate Change policy. My production to Climate Change policy. My guest today is myron ebell, who led the Trump Transition Team on Environment Policy and has long been an advocate of radical reform of the federal Environmental Protection agency. In americas new politics, will the interest of big business consistently trump Environmental Concern . Myron ebell, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for lets ask a simple question to start with, in your opinion does the Drum Residency represent a fundamental reset of environmental and Energy Policy in the United States . Trump. Everything that he has said in the campaign, it seems to me suggests that it campaign, it seems to me suggests thatitis campaign, it seems to me suggests that it is a fundamental reset and that it is a fundamental reset and that we will be turning a corner and moving to a much brighterfuture. Yes, i mean, you obviously have the inside track on this, because you we re inside track on this, because you were pa rt of inside track on this, because you were part of the Transition Team very much involved with drawing up a roadmap for future policy on environmental matters. So, just give mea environmental matters. So, just give me a sense of the way in which your input and he insights to you work together. Were you both on the same page, or you both talking about really moving in a very different direction from the 0bama administration . First, i have no role in the Trump Administration. My work in the transition is over, so i dont represent or speak for the Trump Administration or for the president. I was asked to lead the Transition Team on epa because in fa ct Transition Team on epa because in fact my views largely respond to the views that the president campaigned on and that he promised the American People he would do if he was elected. So, yes, ithink that people he would do if he was elected. So, yes, i think that we share most views on energy and the environment. Lets talk big picture sort of mindset before we dig down into the detail of environmental policy making. In terms of your approach and the president s, and i t; the over the gigggggg. ;f. ;. ; 1 if. a do £ when a scientists, when politicians in the western world, when environmental campaigners all talk about the urgent need to de carbonise the global economy, do you think they are wrong . Yes, i do, andi you think they are wrong . Yes, i do, and i think that the campaign that we have just witnessed and i think that the campaign that we havejust witnessed in and i think that the campaign that we have just witnessed in the United States is interesting, because it is the first president ial campaign that we have had where both candidates, Secretary Clinton and mr trump, campaigned on Climate Policy and on Energy Policy and put forward very different views. 0ne Energy Policy and put forward very different views. One side won and the other side lost, so i think the American People basically agree with President Trump, that Climate Change is not one of their top concerns and that there are a lot more pressing issues to take up by the government. Do you think the American People agree with President Trump when he tweets, as he has, in the last few yea rs, tweets, as he has, in the last few years, in fact, tweets, as he has, in the last few years, infact, because tweets, as he has, in the last few years, in fact, because it is a consistent thought of his, that Global Warming is a hoax, consistent thought of his, that globalwarming is a hoax, i am not a believer he has said, we have the weather, it goes up and down, but we have much bigger problems than that. Do you think with those sorts of m essa 9 es do you think with those sorts of messages that he tweets out, he is speaking for the American People . think he is speaking for a majority of the American People and i think, you know, he tends to exaggerate for a fa ct you know, he tends to exaggerate for a fact and then he walks back, so he said Climate Change is a hoax and later when asked about it he said, i was making a joke, but i dont think it isa was making a joke, but i dont think it is a big problem is the gist of his position, i think. It is a big problem is the gist of his position, ithink. I mean, iwas about to say i am assuming you dont think Climate Change, giving given all of the consensus, you dont think man made Climate Change, though warming of the planet, you dont think it is a hoax, do you, or dont think it is a hoax, do you, or do you . No, buti dont think it is a hoax, do you, or do you . No, but i think a great deal of exaggeration has entered the debate by the campaigners for very rigourous climate policies, and i think if you actually look at the science, it doesnt support what i would call the alarmist position. And, you know, we can discuss that, but i think the fact is that there are large but i think the fact is that there a re large interests, but i think the fact is that there are large interests, both in the Scientific Community but also in the business community, that it is in their interest to exaggerate the impact of Climate Change. Well, lets try to keep it out of politics and the realms of exaggeration, lets just, and i and the realms of exaggeration, letsjust, and i dont want to spend long on it, lets be specific, two of the us federal agencies that have voiced most concerned about Climate Change, our nasa, and goodness knows they rely on science and the Us Department of defence, which are stated in 2015 that Climate Change is an urgent and growing threat to our national security, so, leave aside politics, leave aside exaggeration, you would accept the words of nasa and the pentagon, would you . No, i think that the Department Of Defence was under very strict political supervision from the 0bama white house and that they were told to make sure that Climate Change is involved in all of your thinking about defence, so no, i do not accept that and i think that opinion at nasa is divided between the Modelling Community and what i would call the empirical community, people who rely on temperature datasets. Call the empirical community, people who rely on Temperature Datasetsm is probably to remind everyone you come from a background, the Competitive Enterprise Institute centre for Energy And Environment which in the past winner has been funded by exxon mobil, by the koch brothers, by people who clearly have an interest in pouring scorn on the Climate Change agenda, so it is indeed interesting that donald trump pick you to handle his epa and environmental policy transition, isnt it . Yes, i was surprised. Usually an insider is chosen for each Transition Team. Someone who has had experience working inside the agency or the department, i do not have that, i have always been an outsider. But i dont think a Funding Sources of my organisation have much to do with the policies that we pursue. The fact is that we adopt policies based on what we think are the facts and our political beliefs, which are for free markets and limited government and then we go out and try to attract funding from sources that agree with us. Sure, but in the end youre not a scientist, i mean, i was talking about nasas science and all of the data they collected and their conclusion that Carbon Dioxide particles are the highest in the air in 650,000 years, Global Temperatures have risen much more than one celsius since 1880, you know, this is scientific data, you are not a scientist, and the group that you have come from and that you have very ably represented, very influential in represented, has an agenda which is driven by people who have an interest in denying Climate Change. I think that the facts are that the warming we have seen since the end of the little ice age in the middle of the 19th century is modest. It may be that there is an increasing component of that change caused by human activity, primarily burning coal, oil and natural gas, but, for example, we have produced humanity as a whole has produced about 31 of the total Greenhouse Gas emissions since the beginning of the industrial age, they have been emitted in the last 20 years, and yet there has been a pause, or a hiatus, or a plateau of warming in the last 20 years. If the climate is as sensitive to c02 as is claimed by the alarmists we should have seen significant warming in the last 20 yea rs. Significant warming in the last 20 years. Now, there was an attempt to rewrite the Temperature Record and that has just this week been exposed asa that has just this week been exposed as a hoax. Well, i do want to get into the detail of what you think is going to happen to Environment Policy under the Trump Administration but one more point on the politics of this, and again i think it is instructive to look at where conservative parties and politicians sit Around The World on this issue, and i have looked from, you know, western europe, austral asia, everywhere else, and, frankly, right or centre politicians on the whole art now very accepting of the Scientific Consensus around Climate Change australiasia. Are now. And two other grandees of the Republican Party, jim baker and georgia shorts, on this very day have published an article arguing for a carbon tax as saying that there is mounting Scientific Evidence of the problems with the atmosphere, they are too compelling 110w atmosphere, they are too compelling now to ignore schultz. I use weighed by the fact that, you know, so many conservative political fears are now saying this . Are you swayed. No, infact, the are now saying this . Are you swayed. No, in fact, the House Of Representatives held a test vote on a carbon tax last year and every single republican, including those who agree with your statement that Climate Change is a growing problem voted against a carbon tax. Every single republican. So i think that the Republican Party is united, and we have some people who have perhaps served their country well many decades ago but they really. They are out of the debate, they are not are out of the debate, they are not a significant part of the Conservative Movement today. Right, well, lets look at what donald trump as president , surrounded by people from the Conservative Movement may do in terms of environmental policy making. Let me be blunt about it, was your recommendation to him that he should emasculate the Environmental Protection agency . I have seen lea ked Protection Agency . I have seen leaked documents which suggest you think the cuts should go from a workforce of 15,000 to 5000, that a huge amount of the Grant Giving Activity should be frozen and then stopped, what kind of epa do you imagine donald trump will supervise and look after . The document i prepared, it it was an action plan for the administration, it was advisory and was meant to translate the campaign and the candidates promises and commitments into governance. So, let me tell you what President Trump said during the campaign. He promised to withdraw from the paris climate treaty, he promised to defunct United Nations climate programmes, and he promised to get rid of all withdraw or rescind a number of Greenhouse Gas rules and other environmental rules that he said, and i think quite correctly, had very little to do with environmental to it in, but have a huge negative effect on the economy and they are blocking investment in the economy and creating jobs. So, that is what he promised, so that is what i imagine he is determined to deliver. But the fa ct he is determined to deliver. But the fact is that he also promised, or he said he wanted to abolish the epa, so when i have been quoted recently as saying, i think we are in for some radical downsizing at the epa, iam some radical downsizing at the epa, i am actually taking a more moderate position than he did when he said he wa nted position than he did when he said he wanted to abolish it, or at one point he said, we will leave a little bit. So, let me get this clear in my head, you believe that donald trump is going to revoke the clea n donald trump is going to revoke the clean air act, that he is going to revoke the standards that he imposed on coal and natural gas power plants, he is going to revoke some of the clean water regulations, the waters of the us rule, the standards imposed on the chesapeake bay, these are all gone as far as you concerned if donald trump gets his way . Shinzo Abe Shinzo Abe not the clean air act. Very important to Power Stations across the nation . It will take some time to withdraw and reseat some of these rules but i think those are his commitment and i think largely you can makea commitment and i think largely you can make a very strong case that the reason he wanted the election is of the reasons because of these policies and similar policies for job creation resonated across america in places where we still have manufacturing, we still have energy intensity. And america is breathing dirtier air and living with dirty water and that is a prize worth paying . President trump said during the campaign that he wanted to return to the epa to look after water and Carbon Dioxide is a naturally occurring gas necessary for life on earth, it is not a pollutant and the waters of the us rule has nothing to do with Drinking Water but expanding federal jurisdiction over wetland, you will recall President Trump said he wa nted recall President Trump said he wanted to drain one particular slot in washington and so it is no surprise that he wants to with draw a rule which would expand federal jurisdiction dramatically. Interesting you pick on that phrase. Do you think putting a former chief of exxonmobil in charge of the epa, if he gets is way, scott pruett, as Attorney General in oklahoma has run lawsuits and action against the Environmental Protection agency, does that to you represent the draining the swamp . Yes, Scott Pru Ett draining the swamp . Yes, scott pruett really draining the swamp . Yes, Scott Pru Ett really has draining the swamp . Yes, scott pruett really has shown his dedication to try to rein in the epa which is really out of control. Its regulatory onslaught against people across america who dig up staff, grocer, and i am proud to say my organisation has been with the Attorney General in oklahoma on several major suit including the case to overturn the greenhouse glass rules will power plants. The appointment has not been matched by the feelings of employees. They have signed a petition saying he is shown no interest to withhold polluters accountable but most significantly, accountable but most significantly, a former republican chief of the epa, Christine Todd whitman, saying that she could not remember ever seeing an appointment of someone so disdainful of both the agency and the signs of what the agency does. Science. The signs of what the agency does. Science. I disagree with that characterisation. These are the people i have been