From the hay literary festival, in wales. Today im joined by a packed audience eager to hear from the american politician who defied conventional wisdom to inject passion and radicalism into last yea rs to inject passion and radicalism into last years us president ial election. No, not donald trump but the self styled socialist who challenged Hillary Clinton for the Democratic Party nomination, Bernie Sanders. His movement did not carry him all the way to the white house but has he planted the seed Of A Revolution In American Politics . Cheering and applause. Bernie sanders, welcome to hardtalk. Great to be with you. I think we have to begin by reflect things on what happened in november, 2016. Can you explain to me and explain to this audience how come donald trump was put into the white house by voters, many of whom were those Working Class, blue collar americans that your campaign was all about . Explain it. Let me explain it in two ways. First of all, it is important for everyone to remember that, while donald trump of course one the presidency because he won the presidency because he won the majority of the electoral college, he lost the popular vote by almost 3 million votes so 3 million more people voted for clinton then voted for trump. Number two, for clinton then voted for trump. Numbertwo, i for clinton then voted for trump. Number two, i think and what i say very often, is that it wasnt so very often, is that it wasnt so much that trump who by the way was the most unpopular candidate for president in the history of the United States, very unpopular it was not so very unpopular it was not so much that trump won but that the Democratic Party lost. And by that i mean, not just the lost. And by that i mean, notjust the president ial election, the republicans now control the us house, the us senate, almost two thirds of the governage chairs in america and in the last nine years, running against a party that has moved extremely far to the right, the republicans, democrats have lost almost 1,000 seats in State Legislatures throughout america. So the real question to be asked is, what has happened to the Democratic Party . Why is its strategy and its message failing to such a significant degree . Second part of the answer is that, and tied to the first part, is that while the economy in the United States under president 0bama absolutely improved over that eight year period unemployment went down, deficit went down, a lot of other improvements the truth of the matter is that millions and millions of americans were left behind amidst the global economy. In other words, what trump saw is there was a level of desperation not been dealt with by the democrats. Do you accept a level of responsibility for what you call the failure of the Democratic Party . Imean, i the failure of the Democratic Party . I mean, i know you ran against hillary and you portrayed Hillary Clinton as, frankly, pa rt Hillary Clinton as, frankly, part of the problem, as an elitist democrat who was out of touch with ordinary americans. You said she was far too much in hock to wall street and the big financiers and the corporate interests. But in the end, you backed hillary and do you accept your part of responsibility in the democratic failure . No, actually, ithink that the transition in the Democratic Party that we are seeing today echoes much of what i have been saying for the last 25 years and i think what democrats now understand is you cannot go to Working People who are living in desperation and say that you are for them at the same time as you are taking huge amounts of money from wall street, the insurance companies, the Drug Companies and the fossil fuel industry. But do you in any way regret the lumps you kicked out of Hillary Clinton . Because if you had not, she might be in the white house . No, ido she might be in the white house . No, i do not accept that at all and what i accept is the fact that ourcampaign at all and what i accept is the fact that our campaign brought millions and millions of people into the political process. Donald trump did not need me to understand that Hillary Clinton gave speeches before wall street. Did not need me to understand Hillary Clintons record. What we did in our campaign, toa what we did in our campaign, to a large degree, is created a whole lot of excitement and some of that excitement came into the Democratic Party and came into the Democratic Party and came into the Democratic Party and came into the Hillary Clintons campaign. You have an analysis of politics, not just you have an analysis of politics, notjust in america but across the world, but across the world, but lets just stick to america for the moment. It seems to me, in a sense, quite Old Fashioned. You talk a lot about class. That is old fashion laughter. If it is Old Fashioned to say that the very rich are getting richer while most everybody else is getting poorer, if thats Old Fashioned, then Old Fashioned is absolutely correct. The truth is, not that my ideas are old, but the truth is that politicians all over this world are running away from the basic issue that billionaires increasingly control economies and political systems all over the world. But hang on a minute,. Cheering and applause. Working class americans. Applause Working Class americans in their Hundreds And Thousands made millions in states like michigan, wisconsin, and the so called rust belt of america, they voted for a billionaire. And to my mind, the major reason many Working Class people voted for donald trump is the following asi for donald trump is the following as i said a moment ago, the economy improved under 0bama but the truth is that many people we re but the truth is that many people were left behind so you have over the last a0 years, Tens Of Thousands of factories in the United States that once provided people with decent wages, decent efforts, they are gone and you have towns in america where main street is boarded up, where main street is boarded up, where young people are leaving those towns. You have half of all the workers in america today, as they approached retirement age, do you know how much money they have in the bank when they are 66 over half of all American Workers they have nothing in the bank. They are scared to death. You have young people leaving school a0,000, 50,000 in debt or more so 50,000 in debt or more so my response to you is there isa so my response to you is there is a lot of pain in america and donald trump addressed that pain and he said, i am going to be a different type of republican. I hear your a different type of republican. Ihearyour pain. Iam going ihearyour pain. I am going to take on the establishment, the politics, the political establishment, the economic establishment. Do you know what the only problem was . Donald trump lied and he had no intention of doing it. He didnt lie on everything and on some issues he actually was not 1 and on some issues he actually was not1 million miles from Bernie Sanders. He railed against globalisation, he railed against the Trade Deal Deals which 0bama and the clintons had back, including the north American Free trade agreement, the tra ns pacific partnership. Yep. Injust the yep. In just the same way that you did and he has not lied, he has delivered. He has backed off the Trans Pacific partnership. He says he is going to renegotiate nafta. And in that way it seems to me your class based analysis and your left right language doesnt actually explain what is happening in america. I think it does explain it. The fact that trump understood that when we are running up huge trade deficit, when many corporations are shutting down and moving to china and mexico and throwing American Workers out on the street because they can get cheap labour abroad, it is true that Many Democrats supported that, it is true that bill clinton, under the Clinton Administration did that as well. I voted against that. And you are right, trump is right to point out that those Trade Policies have been extremely bad but where he lied, where he lied is he said, im going to be on the side of Working People. Well, he is not. If you look at the Health Care Proposal that he is supporting, if you look at the budget that he is supporting, these are disastrous proposals for the Working People of this country. Its not even just about economics, is it . Its about culture and identity as well and it seems to me that donald trump, even though he is mega wealthy, hes very he is mega wealthy, hes very anti he is mega wealthy, hes very anti elite. He hates the elites, at least he says he does. Really . Thats news for the well, American People. Hejust appointed American People. He just appointed virtually all of the elite to his administration. He has more billionaires in his administration than any president in the history of the United States. But my point is not really about trump, its getting back to your analysis of. I was going to say of your own party but interestingly you are actually an independent who chose to fight in the aquatic primary. Thats right. You are not a long signed up democrat. But if you look at the language of Hillary Clinton, she used the word deplorable is about trump supporters. Look at barack 0bama after one of the terrible Gun Murder Incident in the United States, he talked about bitter People Living in Middle America with their guns and their religion. Words that he later regretted but it suggests that there is something about the liberal professional outlook which does not connect with ordinary folks in much of your country and i am not sure that even you necessarily connect with some of those people either. Well, thank you, but i would respectfully disagree. I think we do pretty well with Working People throughout the United States of america andi the United States of america and i think that many Working People understand that the recent being profoundly wrong there is. When they are working longer hours for low wages and, in the United States, 5296 in the United States, 52 of all new income is going to the top 1 . The American Worker understands there is something absurd about the fact that he or she cannot afford to send their kids to college by the United States college bailed out the crooks on wall street so out the crooks on wall street soi out the crooks on wall street so i think we do a pretty good job. Not perfect but i proud of the record that i have in support from so many unions and millions of Working People throughout my country. Do you still call yourself a democratic socialist . Absolutely. For you, Redistribution Isa for you, redistribution is a key to economic reform . I think, stephen, is a key to economic reform . Ithink, stephen, that from an economic and moral the pope, pope francis, who have a lot of respect for, raises this issue on a very profound way we as a nation, my country, has got to ask ourselves about the morality of the situation where the top one tenth of 1 now owns more wealth or as much wealth as the bottom 90 . Where 52 of all new income goes to the top 1 . Where globally the top 1 now owns more wealth than the bottom 99 . Iam more wealth than the bottom 99 . I am less interested in the top 1 , all0. 1 i am less interested in the top 1 , all 0. 1 billionaires and Multi Millionaire s, iam and Multi Millionaire s, i am interested in professional people who, in the United States, might be earning 100,000 a year, in the uk it might be £80,000, whatever, here is the problem and there are some fascinating results just done by the new york times, looking at the Democratic Party. I saw that article. You saw that article. It was one of the dumber article isi it was one of the dumber article is i have read ina long is i have read in a long time. Let mejust quote in a long time. Let me just quote a little bit of it, for you and the audience. Those in the top 10 on the Income Distribution voted a7 for clinton is against a6 for trump. In other words, the rich and the professional and the moneyed and the professional and the moneyed and the professional and the moneyed and the comfortable are democrats just as much if not more than theyre just as much if not more than they re republicans. So it is not about them and us any more. Stephen, i happen not to consider somebody who makes a year rich. What i happen to be terribly concerned about, and we cannot run away from this issue, you may not be concerned about alien billionaires, ithink you may not be concerned about alien billionaires, i think you should because i think growth in the United States in the United States in the last 17 years, you know what weve seen . We have seen the middle class shrinking, we have seen 33 Million People living in poverty and we have seen at ten times increase in the number of billionaires. Let me interrupted for a sec. What im concerned about is where you win or you gather together a Winning Coalition of voters because, for all of your achievements in 2016, you didnt win and donald trump is in the white house so is in the white house so going forward, how does the left, the sort of people who support your views, how do you translate big support, young people coming, flocking to your rallies and everything else, how do you transport that into a winning formula because you have got to innocent is persuade people who are comfortably off to be altruistic. No, no, no, no,. I understand that article and it really is quite incorrect. What the article got wrong is that it said Bernie Sanders is that it said Bernie Sanders is going to tax everybody. What they forgot to talk about in the article, by the way were writing a response to that, is that much of the tax revenue goes to providing healthcare to all people and will save tens of millions of middle class families substantial sums of money. Right now, you have the middle class family, and again, i know it is hard for folks in the family, and again, i know it is hard forfolks in the uk family, and again, i know it is hard for folks in the uk to understand this absurdity, but in america you have a middle class Family Husband and wife, two kids who should be paying 15,000, 18,000 a yearfor who should be paying 15,000, 18,000 a year for healthcare. 0ur Health Care Proposal eliminates that. Yes, it asks them to pay more in taxes. U nfortu nately, to pay more in taxes. Unfortunately, the author of that article forgot to mention that aspect. Just a couple of quickfire questions, some were puzzled by a particular stance you took, one was on your refusal over years, actually, to support the more radical proposals to controlling Gun Ownership in the United States. E. G. Do that because of this identity of politics at work about. Did you do this because you thought that would appeal to Working Class, blue collar americans . I did that because i come from a state that has zero gun control but i represent the state, where there is virtually no gun control and, by the way, the crime rate and the murder rate, thank god, are very low. In ruralvermont rate and the murder rate, thank god, are very low. In Rural Vermont you had your tv and you switch it on and you look at the terrible events of sandy hook school. I am my record on gun control has been a strong record. You have repeatedly refused to back the measures that some call the brady measures to impose strict limits on. B