Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. In our warp speed online culture, todays trending topic is often tomorrows forgotten hashtag. Not so with metoo, an expression of understanding and solidarity from women to women driven by a determination to expose the truth about Sexual Violence. Well, my guest today, tarana burke, first coined the phrase, me too, long before the Harvey Weinstein case. And she continues to reach out to marginalised women and girls. But what difference has that me too Movement Made to the Bigger Picture . Tarana burke, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. I want to begin with those two words, me too. It was a phrase, as i said, you coined it long before Harvey Weinstein, before the metoo went viral. Did you feel, in a way, you lost control of that phrase . Well, ithought, you know, in the first days when metoo went viral, it was very nerve racking for a person like me. I was not known, i wasnt in the spotlight, and so i thought that it would be lost. I thought its original cause would be lost, and its purpose. And i think it took a very, very short period of time for me to realise that this was sort of an evolution of what i started, and not necessarily it being lost. So i shifted quickly from the nerves to sing opportunity. To seeing opportunity. The actress who, i think, put the hashtag on it and originated that sort of 2017 viral phenomenon, was alyssa milano. Yes. And she said she wasnt aware that you had used this phrase, with regard to your activism on the Sexual Violence issue, for years beforehand. Did you then talk to her to find out exactly what happened and how she came upon this phrase . Yes, she reached out to me. She was made aware, pretty quickly after she put the tweet out, and she reached out to me within 24 48 hours to say, i didnt know, im so excited to meet you. And then she tweeted it out to her followers that this is the person who originated the phrase and she put my, you know, our website up and things like that. And then we started a friendship. Mm, because the big difference, i suppose, both post the weinstein allegations hitting the newspapers in october 2017, many of the women who spoke out were really pretty high profile, well known, well connected women. Your work, of course, which we can trace back to the 1990s, was mostly with disadvantaged women in communities very, very far from the public eye. So there was a real fundamental difference. Absolutely. Did you, in a sense, feel that your point was being lost there . So, like i said, it was an evolution of it. And so my point was to support survivors. We started out with black and brown girls in the deep south and the United States. And those girls had gone through very similar things to the grown women who had come forward in the weinstein case. And so the thing, the beauty, i think, and the magic of me too is that its a unifier in that way, and its where survivors find community. And so i definitely, the Mainstream Media kept the focus on the actresses and hollywood and that idea, but at its core, the women who came forward were really no different than those girls who i served in the communities ten years before. Well, interesting, the only difference, really, is that, frankly, Wider Society seemed to engage more. 0h, absolutely. With the experiences of their well connected and the high profile than they did with the sort of voices you were reporting on. Absolutely. And that seems to me an area where there might be a good deal of resentment on your part. No, let me tell you what i feel. This is not resentment. This is what ive experienced. And i think most people who look like me have experienced a similar thing. We have been socialised to respond to and to Pay Attention to rich, white, wealthy, famous people in general, and particularly these women. But i dont blame the women for that. I blame the media for that. I blame the media who will constantly. You know, these women are survivors and they came forward to tell their stories. And even though other people if you think about it, the people who made metoo go viral wont those people. The people that made metoo go viral were everyday folks, millions from around the world who got online and told their truth. And weve built this movement on the backs of those people, but we dont get to hear those peoples stories. Indeed. And before we get to, sort of, the fallout from the weinstein case, i do want to actually want to focus on the work youve been doing for years. Wonderful. Because you have this capacity, it seems, to sit down with women and, indeed, girls as well, and get them to discuss and listen to their stories in ways that others havent, and you open them up and get their truth. How do you do it . You know, i dont think that its like magic. I think theres so many people, and, again, this is notjust for women and girls, people who have survived Sexual Violence in general so many of us are shamed into silence that there arent very many spaces where we can open up, where we can tell our stories, where we can reveal our truth that when you provide that opportunity or create that community, people eager to do that. Once metoo went viral, i mean, what i saw when me too went viral is the same thing i saw when i went into Community Centres and did workshops, you know, and with smaller numbers of people, is that people want to be seen, they want to be heard and they want be believed. Youre a new yorker. Iam. But i think one of the most shocking experiences you had, just from recollecting a memory you had of it, was sitting down with a bunch of girls in selma, alabama. Yes. And i think you asked them to raise their hands if they had had an experience of Sexual Violence. And you could not believe how many in that room. So we never ask people to raise their hands publicly. Let me tell you how it happens. Because we dont want people to out themselves if theyre not comfortable, we ask folks to write it down. And so in this instance, wed given all the girls a sheet of paper after the workshop and said, you know, give us three things you learned at this workshop. And, if youre so inclined, write me too at the bottom of the page if youre a survivor and if you want help. And so we collected those papers and went back to the hotel room, and when i dumped them out and began to read one after another after another after another, it was shocking how many, really, the majority of the room had an experience with Sexual Violence. And its something that i had seen over and over again. But, you know, seeing it in writing, in paper wasjust. It was definitely shocking. Do you think it would be pretty much the same experience today . Absolutely. So, in that sense, were going to talk a lot what metoo has achieved, but it hasnt changed that much on that sort of systemic structural level. No, but you also were dealing with something that is centuries old. Were dealing with an epidemic that has been affecting people around the world since the beginning. I mean, its biblical, right . And so theres no way that a hashtag going viral two years ago is going to dismantle structures and systems in such a short period of time. What weve done is weve opened up the space to talk about it in ways that we havent been able to talk about it, and to say this is not about individuals, this is about systems and about structures and this is the pathway forward. Do you think there is a race issue here as well . That the voices of black girls and women are not heard in a way that the voices of white females in the United States are . Oh, i think its a race issue, i think its a gender issue, i think its a sexuality issue. I think marginalised people, as usual, are the last voices that we hear. And so you have stories about black and brown women, stories about queer and trans people, about disabled folks, that never rise to the top, that never get the attention. So coming back to the weinstein case, and i should make it quite clear that were talking while the jury is deliberating. We do not know which way the verdict is going to go in the weinstein case. Yeah. But nonetheless, it has raised all sorts of interesting questions. Heres what one black woman activist, whom i know you know very well, april rain, has said about the weinstein case. She said white women have not been as supportive as they could have been of women of colour, and that is one lesson that we can take away from the fallout from the whole Harvey Weinstein situation. Do you sympathise with that . You know, i think that theres always been this schism between white feminists, black feminists, and particularly online. There was a fallout when metoo went viral about it, and a lot of black women felt not seen and not heard in that moment because of this long history. And so i think theres a lot for white women and non black women, non women of colour. Women who are. White women to learn about how to help amplify the voices of those who dont often get heard, which is women of colour, black women in particular. It does raise questions about the way in which the response has been targeted on personal stories. And its notjust weinstein, because that hit the media in october 2017. After that, there were a host of other famous men who then faced allegations of, at the very least, inappropriate and sometimes outright sexually violent behaviours. Yeah. But they were all told as sort of personal narratives. You followed those stories very closely, but your message appeared to be, let us not get too involved in the personal, in the private, because this is a much deeper structural question. Right. You know, at some point, and at the end of 2017, the beginning of 2018, i felt like i was playing whack a mole. Every week, there would be a new accusation and a new person in the media and all of the attention would be on whoever this next person was. And, one, we would never hear about the survivor and what happened with the survivor or what happens in our lives, in theirlives, but we also didnt look at the systems around those people that allowed it to happen. Right, we can talk about Harvey Weinstein ad nauseam, but we also have to talk about what are the structures that were in place that allowed a Harvey Weinstein to thrive . If youre going to talk about Harvey Weinsteins being successful, then we have to also talk about capitalism, right, because its the love of money and the desire for people to have money and what he represented. The bottom line is people value those things more than they value the humanity of the women that he was really destroying their lives. Its about power. Its about power and its about privilege. At the end of the day, these are the two things that we have to talk about dismantling. These are not individuals, its the power and privilege that they hold. And i should say, as ive already indicated, were speaking before the jury has returned a verdict of course, Harvey Weinstein categorically denies all the charges he faces. Im. Yes. And thats important that i put that out there at this particular point in the legal process. Let us look at a few of the concrete steps that have been taken by a number of states in the us over the last couple of years as metoo notjust went viral, but became a major sort of social and cultural phenomenon. Some states have banned nondisclosure agreements concerning cases of Sexual Harassment. Other states have introduced new protections for workers, including protecting freelance and contract workers, not just staff employees. The times up Legal Defense fund has been established, many millions of dollars have been funnelled to poorer and disadvantaged women who want to pursue, through law, their allegations of Sexual Violence. Do these to you represent a real step change . Oh, absolutely. The thing thats happened. I mean, we have miles to go. But these things represent, one, that people are paying attention to the needs of survivors. For instance, the times up Legal Defense fund is about making sure that women who could not get legal representation, couldnt afford it in the past so that they could fight some of the Sexual Harassment cases they have, now have that, and so that opens up a whole other corridor for people to pursue legal action. There are different steps that people can take, that organisations can take, that Corporate America can take and governments can take. And so every bit that we chip away, every bit that we get is. I count that all as a victory for us. But tarana burke, the problem, in some ways, is that while you might achieve these significant, but relatively small victories, there is something much more overwhelming as a reality in the United States today. You have a president in the white house who we know, thanks to a leaked tape, has, in the past, carried out abusive Sexual Harassment. Yeah. Not only was he elected with the public knowing that, there is a real chance he may be re elected. Dont say that. Laughs well, thats the political reality. I know. And surely that, in terms of what it says about the United States and the political culture and the attitudes towards these issues were discussing today that says something much more damning and depressing and negative than all of the little steps youre talking about. Well, one, again, we have to count every step. Were talking about a monumental thing that we have to dismantle, but, yes, having somebody in the white house thats a self proclaimed sexual predator is definitely. Doesnt make you feel hopeful. But, you know, we started an Initiative Call me too voter this year at the second anniversary of me too going viral. And the reason why we did that is because, one, he didnt win by a large margin and there are millions of people in america who feel very strongly that we should have a different person in the white house, for several reasons, one of which is because of his past as a sexual predator. And me too voter is about people who have survived Sexual Violence being able to stand up and stand in their power and say that, im notjust a victim, im a survivor and im a constituent. But isnt there a danger in your entering the political arena with your movement me too voter and other messages . Because just looking at some survey evidence, you are really turning off a lot of white, male and largely republican voters. Theres one extraordinary yougov sponsored survey recently which showed thatjust 37 of republican self styled republican men in the us today say that they are now likely to believe women in legal cases, which hinge upon the truth of allegations of Sexual Violence. I dont know that number would have been different before me too. Well, it has actually gone down over the last couple of years. I think that. It was over 50 and now its just 37 of republican men say theyre inclined to believe women. I think that the issue we have around me too is that people dont understand what the movement is. They dont understand what our work is. And so numbers like this come from perceptions that come from the media. Theres a perception because the media says this new person is guilty of this or this new person is accused of that and they keep honing in on the individual bad actors. Its one of the reasons why we want to shift the conversation and shift the narrative away from that. But all of america was able to look in on, for example, on the nomination process in front of senators of supreme courtjustice Brett Kavanaugh. Every american was able to form their own view of that and, frankly, what people took away from it very much depended on their political perspective. You know, most republicans were absolutely sure that kava naugh deserved his place on the bench, while most democrats were equally convinced this was a man not fit to serve. Yeah. Its polarised and its become deeply political. I mean, i think the country right now is polarised. I think every topic if you brought up Climate Change in america, it would be split down the middle by partisan, right. I think that we are in a moment in our country where every topic you bring up, people are going to divide. I have people who send us messages, who say, im republican, im a trump supporter, and i was raped. And i dont support your movement and i dont believe it. That they would even put aside their own trauma to side politically tells you just how divisive things are in our country, and i think that is about more so whats happening in the country than it is about me too. Heres another way in which i wonder whether youve reflected on how the me too has evolved over the last couple of years, and thats just a sense that, again, surveys reveal a sense of unease and uncertainty that particularly men have about what is acceptable and not acceptable in terms of behaviours with women, particularly in the workplace. For example, again, im going to quote to you survey evidence 10 of both men and women say that they are now less willing to hire attractive women. 22 of men, 44 of women predicted that men would be more apt to exclude women from social interactions such as afterwork drinks. Nearly one in three men thought that they would now be reluctant to have a one on one work meeting with a woman. Why is this happening, do you think . Its because people dont understand what the movement is. We. This is the thing we are unearthing something that people really dont want to talk about. Weve never had a moment like this in history, weve never had a moment where we actually had Sexual Violence on the centre stage, where were looking at the breadth of Sexual Violence from Sexual Harassment to rape and murder, right . We havent really examined that. Now that were having these conversations and women, particularly women, are voicing things that have always been uncomfortable, theres this notion that something has changed, but, really, nothing has changed except for the fact that people can hear us when we say, these things are inappropriate. So now, you have people responding to that because we are upending something that has been institutionalised, really, for so long. People have been able to do what they want to do, say what they want to say, be inappropriate in all kinds of ways without being called on it. Now theyre being called on and theyre saying, i my gosh, this isjust. This is uncomfortable. When, really, all women are saying is, im asking for you to consent. This word than that sometimes gets bandied around, that its gone too far, that some say a witch hunt is now under way. Yes. And some of them cite an interesting case, and id just like your views on it. And i know you dont like to get too involved in individual cases, but the one case im thinking of is the democratic senator al franken who was, essentially, forced out, required to resign he felt he was required to resign after a host of women said that hed behaved inappropriately toward them. Interestingly, even some self proclaimed feminists, including the lawyer who represented Christine Blasey ford in her battle with Brett Kavanaugh in front of senators she said, the allegations levelled against senator franken didnt warrant his forced expulsion from the senate. To treat all allegations the same is not only appropriate. It feeds a backlash narrative that men are vulnerable to even frivolous allegations by women. But i dont think our call is not to treat all allegations the same. Yeah. No, of course not. It makes no sense to try to dump everybody into one box and say, these are the bad people and these are the good people. Sexual violence happens on a spectrum so accountability should happen on a spectrum, right . The level of things that happen to people vary from depending on. I could have an experience and another woman have the exact same experience and we come away feeling differently about that. So, how did you feel about the resignation of senator franken . Well, i think that was his own decision, right. I think thats not. Im not here to draw opinions about whether he should or shouldnt have. He made a decision based on what was happening in his life. But i think the bigger question is that we have to look at what accountability looks like for people, and survivors want accountability in different ways. We have to shift away from this idea that theres only one way to look at and deal with all Sexual Violence. I think thats a more you know, a more appropriate framework for us to work from. The more we develop this conversation, the more im thinking to myself that while we characterise me too as largely a movement sort of by women for women, it is only going to work if you really have men with you, and do you think men get it . Well, first of all, this is the reason why everywhere i go, i try to tell people me too is not a womens movement. We are a Survivors Movement and i think its counter productive to only engage men from the perspective that they are the harm doers and they have to change and they are the perpetrators. Men are also survivors of Sexual Violence, and so, ourfirst engagement with them is from that place. The second point is that men are also wonderful allies, and youre right were not going to move the needle at all unless we can engage and men and women, and however people identify in ways that let them understand how harmful Sexual Violence is and how we, as human beings, are responsible for undoing that. So, men are very much involved in that and are very much a part of the solution. This is not a war against men. We cant make the changes that we need to see an end 01 even an interruption to Sexual Violence unless we have everybody engaged. You said to me a little earlier that, fundamentally, this is about power, its about the dynamics. Power and privilege. Of power and privilege. Youve been at this for decades, its been your lifes work. But how far down at this path, along this journey do you feel yourself to be . I mean, are you still near the beginning or can you see the end in sight . I am standing on the shoulders of people who started this fight way before me. And so i see myself as taking the mantle, the baton was passed to me and im carrying it even further. So myjob is to do more than was done prior to me coming. I think that we are way further along than we were a0 years ago, right, when the first rape crisis centres were opening in the United States and we are just getting to certain kinds of womens lib issues around Sexual Violence. Were way further advanced than that. And can you imagine a day when you walk back into a classroom or a refuge in selma, alabama, and you ask women and girls whether they have had experienced direct personal experience of Sexual Violence and they do not have to write on that piece of paper, me too . Can you imagine that . I can imagine that. I can also imagine the day where there is comprehensive Sex Education that is in curriculums is across the country so that young people who go through school, by the time they graduate, have been hearing about consent and boundaries and respect since they were in kindergarten, and they think differently, and so Sexual Violence is appalling to them. Tarana burke, its been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hello there. Some of us should see some sunshine this weekend but its looking decidedly unsettled again. Well have plenty of showers around and some of these will be heavy. Snow across the north of the country and for most of us, particularly today, its going to be very windy, with pretty widespread gales. You can see why. The pressure chart shows lots of isobars on the charts right across the country. A couple of weather fronts working their way south across england and wales, lots of showers packing into the north and west of the uk. So it could start quite grey on saturday with the bands of rain spreading south east. Most of them should clear away by the afternoon and we should see sunshine and showers, most of these showers across western areas, the odd heavy one, and plenty of snow showers across scotland. The winds featuring 40, 50 mile an hour gusts quite widely, 60 miles an hour for Northern England and northern ireland, up to 70 miles an hour in exposure in the north and west of scotland. Heavy snow showers will continue to pile through significant accumulations on the hills, and there will be blizzards as well when you factor in the strength of the winds. Cold in the north but mild in the south, 10 13 in the afternoon. As we head through saturday evening and overnight, we continue with the snow showers in the north. Further accumulations on the hills and we see a ripple in that weather front, which will push some rain back northwards to parts of northern ireland. Quite a bit into england and wales, especially across western areas. Milder in the south, cold in the north with the risk of ice. Sunday, this weather front will be slow to clear from england and wales through the day, eventually it will do, so its a slow improvement, quite a wet morning, i think, for many parts of england and wales. Slowly, though, the skies will brighten up and cloud will come back across southern counties of england towards the channel. Elsewhere, sunshine developing on further showers across scotland also begin. These will be wintry over the high ground, as it will be another chilly day in the north, mild across southern counties of england. That brief ridge of High Pressure will settle things down for a while later on sunday and early into monday, but its short lived. This next deep area of low pressure will hurtle in on monday and bring a spell of severe gales and snow. Some snow could be disruptive across the far north of england and the central belt of scotland on the monday morning rush. It will transfer north and revert back. Widespread gales and severe gales in the north, further south, a belt of a rain sweeping east across england and wales, with sunshine following on behind, maybe one or two showers. Temperatures 10 12 in the south, feeling cold in the north. Welcome to bbc news, im james reynolds. Our top stories more cases of coronavirus outside china the World Health Organisation warns of a closing window of opportunity to stop it spreading. Us intelligence agencies say russia is attempting to interfere in this years president ial election. A seven day reduction in hostilities begins in afghanistan, paving the way for further talks between the us and the taliban. And has romes founder been found . 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