Now on bbc news, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk with me, zainab badawi. As the covid i9 pandemic takes hold, the capacity of governments around the world to respond is being seriously tested. Zeinab. My guest is the secretary general of the United Nations, antonio guterres, who hasJust Launched a humanitarian appeal focused mainly on helping a0 of the most vulnerable countries. He says that a global approach is the only way to fight the virus, and that without critical support, the impact of covid i9 will be deep and particularly severe on poorer nations. But how realistic are his proposals and who will pay for them . Secretary general antonio guterres, welcome to hardtalk. You have described covid i9 as a threat to humanity. What do you mean by that and how worried are you . First of all, its a pleasure to be with you again. Well, it is clear. I mean, if this pandemic would be left alone, if you wouldnt be able to suppress it, it will reach millions and millions of people. It will have millions of people, victims, dying of it. And it is clearly the biggest threat to humanity that we have seen in the recent past. And that is one reason why it is so important that instead of acting separately, each one doing what each one wants, it is essential to have Effective International cooperation, Co Ordination, to defeat this virus, to win this war against covid i9. But when people hear the secretary general of the United Nations use such language as millions could die, are you not going scare people . And i put to you what professor michael levitt, who is a Nobel Laureate and stanford biophysicist who has done various projections, and he projects a quick coronavirus recovery. He told the la times this week we are going to be fine. What we need to do is control the panic. As a matter of fact, what we are seeing is exponential increase of cases, everywhere in the world. We had the first death in china, then we are having it the epicentre in europe. There is a strong risk of the epicentre to come to to the United States. And we are seeing now in the global south. The global south is much less equipped to defeat the disease. We are seeing an enormous increase in cases globally. And the best Scientific Evidence indicates that, unless there is a fairly strong effort to suppress the disease, these might reach until the so called herd immunity is reached, this might reach 60 to 70 of the global population. Even if this disease kills less than other outbreaks, like ebola recently, this would always mean millions of people dying in the world, and this is absolutely unacceptable also morally unacceptable. So we need to make sure that we have an articulated response, a co ordinated response under the guidance of the who. And i believe the g20 meeting this week is a Good Opportunity to create a mechanism of Co Ordination under the guidance of the who. An articulated response to be able to suppress collectively this virus, and then, once suppressed, to be able to contain it until a vaccine is found. Because only with a vaccine will we be able to eradicate the disease. And i truly believe that, in the absence of an effectively co ordinated action, if each country will go on acting by itself, we risk to have this pandemic with catastrophic impacts in people, and lets not forget, catastrophic impacts in the Global Economy, in the livelihoods, and especially, with the most vulnerable suffering the most. Youve put a lot in that answer. Lets just unpack it a little bit. Youve Just Launched a humanitarian appeal to raise funds for developing nations, which you predict are going to be struggling to cope with the covid i9. But i put it to you that 500,000 cases globally, nearly 20,000 deaths should the un not have done Something Like this much sooner . Well, probably, yes. We have been acting, but we believed at a certain moment that we needed to enhance our response. There was the first appeal from the World Health Organization of 600 million. But this time, we need to look very carefully into those situations of extreme vulnerability. Im talking about areas of conflict. Im talking about fragile states, refugee camps, displaced peoples camps, and all other situations in the poorest countries of the world, where the capacity to respond is much less effective. And the disease is now coming to those areas. And so what we want is to increase the medical capacity, increase the volume of equipment that is available, but also to look into health and water and sanitation. To look into all the things necessary to contain the spread of the disease. To look into the livelihoods of the populations most affected. But this is just for the most vulnerable of the vulnerable, and this is why it is a drop in the ocean. Were talking about 2 billion when, for instance, the package being discussed in the us senate, just for the us economy, is 2 trillion. Where is the money going to come from . And let me tell you what one former government minister in liberia said during the Ebola Outbreak in 2014, that killed 11,000 people in west africa. And he said now, in the past you could look to the west for help, but they are battling the same thing so it is not clear any help is coming at all. So how confident can you be that the global south that youre so worried about is going to get the assistance it needs . Its a matter of enlightened self interests. We are talking of a pandemic. Now, first of all, our Main Objective with the appeal is to avoid the humanitarian support that we are already receiving for all other aspects water and sanitation, food, protection, shelter. All of those vulnerable situations in the world, from syria to yemen, south sudan, to the drc. What we want is to make sure that we have Additional Support for covid 19, and that the money doesnt come from the humanitarian action that we are already having. Addressing your question, this is a matter of enlightened self interest. If this pandemic is controlled in the developed world, but is left to spread like wildfire in the developing countries, we would have millions of cases, millions of people dying, but not only that. That will create the opportunity for mutations of the virus. And the virus can come back in a way that even vaccines which are developed will not be effective even in the developed world. So there is no way to fight this with half of humanity. Either you fight it globally, or you risk to be defeated by the virus, and we cannot be defeated by the virus. But are you not trying to scare richer nations by kind of saying, if you dont fight the virus in poorer countries, it leaves the virus free to circle back around the globe and affect you . It is not a matter of scaring, this is the reality. This is the reality. Its in the enlightened self interest of the developed world to support the developing world, to suppress this virus, in Co Ordination with the more developed countries of the world. And that is a very important thing for the g20 to take into account. I believe we need in the g20 a mechanism, under the guidance of the World Health Organization, in order for the countries of the g20 to be able to, together, combining different approaches in some countries, the emphasis more on testing and tracing and quarantine, and less in lockouts. Countries with less testing capacity, if there are more lockouts. In any case, it needs to be very tough everywhere and in a combined way, an articulated way. The g20 represents 80 of the world economy. But that is not enough. Even if it is together, with the g20 countries, suppressed in that part of the world, its absolutely essential not to leave other countries behind, and that is why ive been advocating for a very strong package, a package of the level of two digits of the Global Economy. Part of it, of course, will be spent by each country itself. You can see what the United States is doing, what the European Union is doing, what china has done. We need 2 3 billion to be able to support the response to covid 19 in developing countries as a whole. Not only the most vulnerable situations, like we are addressing now with this appeal, but in all of the developing countries as well. And you have the imf, already with 1 trillion of lending capacity. You have the possibility of special drawing rights to be issued. You have swaps among Central Banks that can help, especially emerging economies. We have a number of insturments that can be put in place in a co ordinated way, and we can win this battle if we are together. You made reference to the fact that the United States is going to be pushing through trillions of dollars to ensure that covid 19 doesnt have such a detrimental impact on the United States. Are you kind of saying that, look, rich countries like the us could cough up more for the developing nations . Is that the kind of message youre trying to put over that they could do more . Yes, but there are instruments that allow it to happen. As i said, the imf has already 1 trillion capacity to lend. We are in a war situation with the virus. We need a war economy. And, as the us is printing money in the us, we can do it globally in a way that is effective to address the challenges of the covid 19. All right, you are clearly arguing for a co ordinated International Response to deal with what is after all a global threat. What do you think about the way individual governments have been responding to the pandemic . Weve seen quite a difference in approach. France, for instance, has more stringent measures than the united kingdom, which has taken more of a wait and see approach. Donald trump in United States, seems to be more relaxed, and says that he wants to see the us economy going back to normal at easter 12 april. Whats your sense of how National Governments are responding . Are you content . Well, of course im not happy with the present situation. There is an effective dysfunctionality in the way all this is all happening. We have not a global government system. Of course, the World Health Organization is the un authority on health. They have issued guidelines, but many of the countries have not respected them, or sometimes they do and sometimes they dont. So the only way out is through Effective International cooperation, and i believe the g20 can be the nucleus of that International Cooperation, aiming at acting together in an articulated way. But look, i mean, this is not only the covid 19. If you look at peace and security i mean, the relationship between the biggest powers has never been as dysfunctional. The Security Council has been paralysed in relation to many of the conflict situations in the world. For Climate Change, it has been so difficult to bring people together. So, we are witnessing a serious problem, and that problem is that International Cooperation has never been at this low level, and we need to make sure people understand that as threats are becoming global, covid 19 is another one, Climate Change already existed, terrorism, global terrorism is there. As these threats are becoming global, we effectively need to have a very strong commitment to International Cooperation, and to strengthen multilateral institutions. I know this is not popular in some media. I know that many think they can do it by themselves, that each one by itself is or himself is the best way to deal with these problems. But the reality shows, and covid 19 is showing it dramatically, eitherwejoin, either we are in solidarity, either we are together, or we can be defeated. Secretary general, you sound as a man really, a world leader, in despair about the state of the lack of International Cooperation. What do you think lies behind this dire situation, where key powers are not cooperating in the way you would like to see them . Whats the reason . We are in a transition moment. We lived in a bipolar world, and lived in a unipolar. Now we are in a chaotic situation. Its not yet multi polar or unipolar or bipolar. Power relations are unclear. We are seeing more and more spoilers in international relations, less capacity to control them. And as i said, relations between the biggest powers have never been so dysfunctional as they are today. Why, can i ask you to clarify . Are you talking about United States and china . Could you be more specific . Well it is very specific, the United States and china are two fundamental pillars of the Global Economy and they need to come together to fight covid 19. I mean, there are problems, there are questions, there are eventually failures here and there. But instead of making that the issue, the issue is to bring people together and look at Global Supply chains. You need to have ventilators everywhere, you need to have tests everywhere, you need to have medical equipment everywhere. I mean, its a good reason to do it in a way in which there is a common planning, a Common Supply chain and the possibility to provide it to people everywhere in the same circumstances. This is not a moment to fight each other, this is not the moment for division this is a moment to come together. Its not easy in the present world and we know all the contradictions that exist but the choice is between chaos and united action to respond to a very dramatic threat that humankind is facing. So its not helpful when you hear comments from the trump administration, including the president himself, referring to covid 19 as that chinese virus . I think this is not the moment for anyone to blame others. Probably, i believe in the end we will need to do Lessons Learned and need to see what failed and why it failed in several parts of the world, but this is the moment to come together, to unite and to defeat covid 19. To rescue our lives. I want to put to you an alternative view which is notjust compounded by president trump, but we have also seen for example, Philip Thomas of Bristol University in britain, a professional of Risk Management saying, im worried that in order to solve one problem we will create a bigger problem, and he says keeping the economy going is crucial otherwise measures will do more harm than good, and that kind of reflects president trumps view that he says if it were up to the doctors, they may say let us shut down the entire world and you cannot do that. Do you accept there has got to be a trade off between killing the economy and tackling covid 19 . But that is exactly the reason why i am saying we need to have together a package of, a double digit of the percentage of Global Economy, and a package that each country can do by itself, but obviously it is much more powerful if everything is combined. A package that today is different from 2008. It is no longer to rescue the financial system, this is not a financial crisis, this is a human crisis. This package needs to be put in place in order to support salaries of those that are losing theirjobs. In order to support companies for them to preserve those jobs and preserve their existence. In order to keep households afloat, Keep Companies afloat, especially small and medium sized business. In order to have the Global Economy able to survive this crisis, and then, to have also a concerted action in relation to the exit strategy and in relation to the, i would say, recovery of the economy, with an opportunity. This is an opportunity to have a recovery that can be of a more sustainable and inclusive economy. We dont need to rebuild everything as it was, we can do it much better in the future. And who takes the leadership for that . Youve mentioned the g20 and you can look to them, but shouldnt the United Nations do that . After all, the World Health Organization is part of the un family, and surely you should be saying, i want the United Nations empowered, which is the point that professor ian golding makes, a professor of development and globalisation, we need to empower the un so that we can come together to tackle this threat. Why dont you say im antonio guterres, i want to be the focal point of tackling this covid 19 . This is not a question of narcissism. What we need is a concerted action, and the un is ready to do whatever the un is asked for. We are now, for instance, putting together all our supply chain capacities, in order to offer the International Community a possibililty to be much more effective in relation to, for instance, medical equipment in all parts of the world. But i believe the g20 represents 80 of the world economy. The leaders of the g20 have an opportunity, with no other similar, in the concentration of power, because power is not in the un. Power, whether we like it or not, is in the member states. They are coming together, 80 , they have the chance to prove a co ordinated action. In terms of the message you would like to give to the world in terms of how they should respond to covid 19, young people in particular, dr tedros