Bronwen maddox, director and Chief Executive of chatham house, and miles taylor, formerly Chief Of Staff at the Us Department of homeland security. We will get their thoughts on the meeting today between President Putin and kim jung un. And those calls today for a Re Evaluation of the uks relationship with beijing, which follows new allegations of Potential Spying by china in westminster. We will focus on libya very shortly. But first, theres been a Big Development this evening in a police investigation, here in the uk, into the death of 10 year old sara sharif, whose body was found at the family home in woking, surrey, five weeks ago. Herfather, his wife and his brother who left the country for pakistan before saras death was reported are now back in the uk. Urfan sharif, Beinash Batool and faisal malik were not arrested as they boarded a plane in pakistan for dubai. The authorities in pakistan say they travelled of their own free will. But when they landed in the uk, all three of them were arrested on suspicion of murder. A short time ago Surrey Police made a Brief Statement to the media. Take a listen. Our investigation into the death of ten year old sara sharif was launched following the discovery of her body at her home address in woking on the 10th of august. This evening, around 7 45 pm, three people were arrested in connection with this investigation at gatwick airport. Two men, aged 41 years and 28 years, and a woman aged 29 years were arrested on suspicion of murder after disembarking a flight from dubai. They are currently in custody and will be interviewed in due course. Saras mother has been informed of this latest update and is being supported by specialist officers. Our thoughts remain with her and those affected by saras death at this difficult time. This has been an extremely fast moving, challenging and complex inquiry and we remain absolutely committed to conducting a thorough investigation into saras death. We will not be commenting any further at this point and will provide further updates as and when we are able to do so. Thats the statement from detective superintendent mark chapman at Surrey Police headquarters in guildford. We know all three of those wanted, saras father, her uncle and stepmother came back of their own free will. Some suggesting there was pressure within the family to do that but it seems no indication until they got on that flight that they were coming home. Lots on focus in the pakistani media, perhaps they decided they could not avoid going back to the uk. All three of them arrested on suspicion of murder. They will be interviewed further. It is perhaps a reflection ofjust how isolated and unstable libya has become that it has taken us nearly two days to learn the true scale of the disaster in derna. A Cascading Flood from one failed dam to another, that channelled a wall of water down the valley. A Reverse Tsunami that crashed into the sea, taking at least 10,000 people with it. The victims who have been found, are now being buried in mass graves, but so many have been washed out to sea. The urgently needed relief has started to arrive, but Rescue Efforts have been hampered by the political situation, with the country split between two Rival Governments. And remember that in morocco, the International Aid agencies were already grapplig with the aftermath of an earthquake that killed nearly 3,000 people. In the first hour of the programme tonight, we heard from dr najib tarhoni, a Doctor Working in benghazi, in the nearest large hospital to derna. Things are even worse right now because more bodies are coming, more corpses are being identified. People who were identified as missing are now identified as dead. There are an estimated 15,000 missing and most of them are soon to be dead because the flood is like a Reverse Tsunami, thats literally what happened, because the flooding has taken away notjust people, it took away buildings that held tens of people because you can see. How libyan families are formed, they are notjust nuclear families. No, one house carries a lot of people, grandchildren, grandparents, sons. A lot of houses contain at least ten to 15 people and these houses were carried away by the flood. The country, the city is facing a lot of devastating problems not just from the flood but also from the speed of the flood, where it carried away people to the sea. A lot of women are assumed dead because most women cannot swim, especially in this type of city. The Death Numbers are expected to exceed 20,000. Bronwen maddox, director and Chief Executive i have been to derna during the war in libya. Its a peculiar place, it sits in this Mountain Valley and the river flows down to the sea. You can imagine how this wall of water was channelled through the city centre. Its an extraordinary thing that has happened. The trouble is the International Aid efforts need to governments talking to each other and at the moment that doesnt seem to be happening. And at the moment that doesnt seem to be happening to be happening. These are extraordinary to be happening. These are extraordinary numbers to be happening. These are extraordinary numbers of. To be happening. These are extraordinary numbers of people to be happening. These are extraordinary numbers of people dead so quickly. Just as you are describing it, as the pictures show, this is an extraordinary phenomenon of the failure of two dams upstream which let this huge volume of water crashed down on this town which is right in a cleft between these dams with the water behind them and the sea. These are horrendous pictures. This happened in minutes. What sea. These are horrendous pictures. This happened in minutes. This happened in minutes. What can ou tell us this happened in minutes. What can you tell us about this happened in minutes. What can you tell us about the this happened in minutes. What can you tell us about the way this happened in minutes. What can you tell us about the way it this happened in minutes. What can you tell us about the way it is you tell us about the way it is governed, libya . Why is it so complicated . Governed, libya . Why is it so comlicated . , , complicated . These so uprising, the Revolution Of complicated . These so uprising, the Revolution Of libya complicated . These so uprising, the Revolution Of libya never complicated . These so uprising, the Revolution Of libya never Got Revolution of libya never got complete and britain and others encouraged the overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi back in 2011 but then it emerged this divided country with the uk and others are backing one part of the country and a government that disagrees with that holding the other half. 0ne that disagrees with that holding the other half. One of the things that has happened or in fact not happened is investment and caretaking of things like dams. A lot of warnings about this that these dams needed a lot of maintenance but in the disarray and lack of communication between the part that is recognised by the International Community and the part that isnt, this has got neglected and as you were describing, some of the problem is in coordinating aid. Im not quite as pessimistic as you first describe, aid is now getting through, everyone recognises this is a catastrophe, including the government not recognise that controls this part. People are trying to coordinate but as he also described, it is very hard to get to and this is a catastrophe on a very huge and sudden scale. The difficulty. Huge and sudden scale. The difficulty, miles, huge and sudden scale. The difficulty, miles, the huge and sudden scale. The difficulty, miles, the strongman in the east as this commander and he supports the government. By all accounts, in terms of some of the upkeep and reconstruction in derna after they cleared out the militants some years ago, he now is very suspicious of derna and he doesnt want to put any money in there. But again is going to complicate the rebuilding effort, the main power in ghazi seem suspicious of the people who live there. Who live there. Without a doubt. He has sent who live there. Without a doubt. He has spent most who live there. Without a doubt. He has spent most of who live there. Without a doubt. He has spent most of his who live there. Without a doubt. He has spent most of his career has spent most of his career focusing has spent most of his career focusing on security, infighting and tribal focusing on security, infighting and tribal differences and not operating a stay tribal differences and not operating a stay. Thats what you are seeing here a stay. Thats what you are seeing here it a stay. Thats what you are seeing here it also a stay. Thats what you are seeing here. It also shows why in the west we may here. It also shows why in the west we may be here. It also shows why in the west we may be focused to singularly or injust we may be focused to singularly or injust the we may be focused to singularly or injust the threats we may be focused to singularly or in just the threats to our countrys from in just the threats to our countrys from a in just the threats to our countrys from a failed state or failing state like libye from a failed state or failing state like libya. We spent a lot of time talking like libya. We spent a lot of time talking about Terrorist Groups that could talking about Terrorist Groups that could constitute there but in addition could constitute there but in addition to that, there is the fact that the addition to that, there is the fact that the actual people who live in that the actual people who live in that country are being failed by the fact that that country are being failed by the fact that there is a government that cannot fact that there is a government that cannot service them. We are talking about cannot service them. We are talking about two cannot service them. We are talking about two dams tailing here that led to the about two dams tailing here that led to the flooding of the city. It really to the flooding of the city. It really is to the flooding of the city. It really is two Rival Governments bailing really is two Rival Governments bailing here that have been unable to address the situation. Even when i to address the situation. Even when i was to address the situation. Even when i was working on issues related to libya i was working on issues related to libya in i was working on issues related to libya in the i was working on issues related to libya in the Us Government, we didnt libya in the Us Government, we didnt even have an embassy in the country didnt even have an embassy in the country that didnt even have an embassy in the country that we could go to. When i wanted country that we could go to. When i wanted to country that we could go to. When i wanted to visit and talk to our ambassador, we were operating out of tunisia ambassador, we were operating out of tunisia. When you have an incident like this, tunisia. When you have an incident like this, you tunisia. When you have an incident like this, you dont have people on the ground like this, you dont have people on the ground who can assess what Aid Organisations need to be called, that is organisations need to be called, that is the organisations need to be called, that is the level of failure we are talking that is the level of failure we are talking about. | that is the level of failure we are talking about. That is the level of failure we are talking about. I hinted at the top that you are talking about. I hinted at the top that you are already talking about. I hinted at the top that you are already dealing talking about. I hinted at the top that you are already dealing with this giant earthquake in morocco. There is only so much aid or aid help that the people who run the Aid Organisations, there is only so much they can do. Are they being stretched so thinly that derna might lose out here . I stretched so thinly that derna might lose out here . Lose out here . I think is the resoonse lose out here . I think is the response that lose out here . I think is the response that is lose out here . I think is the response that is being lose out here . I think is the response that is being stretched as opposed to the money. There is a lot of money pledged, the British Government has pledged £1 million to libya. Its a question of how to organise getting it there and how to spend it but as you said, these two natural catastrophes happening within hours, days within each other have stretched agencies on the ground enormously. Have stretched agencies on the ground enormously. There is bound to be a conversation ground enormously. There is bound to be a conversation about ground enormously. There is bound to be a conversation about whether ground enormously. There is bound to be a conversation about whether the l be a conversation about whether the rested enough after the war. Did we leave these two governments in place, could we have put more aid, support in there. Does the west bear some responsibility for the stately country is in . Country is in . Yeah, i absolutely think we do country is in . Yeah, i absolutely think we do. I country is in . Yeah, i absolutely think we do. I will country is in . Yeah, i absolutely think we do. I will even country is in . Yeah, i absolutely think we do. I will even take country is in . Yeah, i absolutely think we do. I will even take a i think we do. I will even take a little think we do. I will even take a little tiny think we do. I will even take a little tiny sliver of personal responsibility there because when i was in responsibility there because when i was in conversations, at least on the us was in conversations, at least on the Us Government about how we should the Us Government about how we should manage relations with these Rival Factions in libya, most of those Rival Factions in libya, most of those conversations, our Thought Process those conversations, our Thought Process was about which strongman in the country process was about which strongman in the country can most cooperate with us to the country can most cooperate with us to suppress Terrorist Groups like isis us to suppress Terrorist Groups like isis and us to suppress Terrorist Groups like isis and others that may misuse that territory isis and others that may misuse that territory to isis and others that may misuse that territory to come after the United States territory to come after the United States in territory to come after the United States. In my opinion there was less of a focus states. In my opinion there was less of a focus on states. In my opinion there was less of a focus on long term political reconciliation and much more they focus reconciliation and much more they focus on reconciliation and much more they focus on us reconciliation and much more they focus on Us National Security interests focus on Us National Security interests. 0ther focus on Us National Security interests. Other countries in the rest did interests. Other countries in the rest did the thing and we ended up ina rest did the thing and we ended up in a stalemate that may benefit western in a stalemate that may benefit western Security Interest but has partly western Security Interest but has partly contributed to humanitarian catastrophes in derna and potentially other places if there is not reconciliation within the country not reconciliation within the count. ,. ~ not reconciliation within the count. ,. , ~. , not reconciliation within the count. ~. , country. Do you think, i was at the g20 at the country. Do you think, i was at the 620 at the weekend country. Do you think, i was at the 620 at the weekend and country. Do you think, i was at the 620 at the weekend and obviously| country. Do you think, i was at the 620 at the weekend and obviously the g20 at the weekend and obviously the countries would always point to the war in libya, iraq and afghanistan. Do you think that complicates the efforts to build a coalition of the willing when it comes to ukraine . Yes, i do. Willing when it comes to ukraine . Yes, ido. Iraq willing when it comes to ukraine . Yes, i do. Iraq more than libya but britain was guilty of thinking that its called relations with Colonel Gaddafi would all be better if something replaced him and then grabbing too quickly at the ideas of who might replace him without taking on board, this is years after the of iraq were evident, without taking on board the complexity of the factions and the different competition for power and not realising just how complex this country was going to be. If complex this country was going to be. ,. ,. , , be. If you are with us in the first hour of the be. If you are with us in the first hour of the programme, be. If you are w