From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. President obama ordered limited air strikes against militants in northeastern iraq on thursday. It was in response to a potential genocide for strikes to achieve their initial goal of liberating 20,000 refugees who are trapped. The iraqi president named a replacement for the prime minister. Hes the Deputy Speaker of the parliament. To step downd accusing the president of acting unconstitutionally. Obama addressed the situation earlier today and here is what he said. Of this new leadership has to regain the confidence by governing inclusively and taking steps to demonstrate its resolve. United states stands ready to support a government that addresses the needs and grievances of all iraqi people. We are ready to work with other countries in the region to deal with the humanitarian crisis and challenges in iraq. Mobilizing that support will be easier once the government is in place. Is joining me is jeffrey goldberg, the authoring, must of bloomberg news. And peter baker, White House Correspondent for the you new york times. The head of new york news programming. Let me begin with peter. We want to talk about what is going on in iraq. We have a change in government. Tell me how you think in this moment the Obama Administration sees iraqi and its decision to go ahead on humanitarian reasons and to prevent a genocide . Is the ghost that will never quite leave this president. He wanted to get out and get the country out at the end of 2011. He finds himself drawn in. Own say it is mostly his fault for not leaving troops in 2011. He says this was not anticipated and the iraqis do not want the troops anyway. You finds himself once again with airstrikes and humanitarian errors drops airdrops. Was originally to protect american to are stuck in the consulate and to prevent a humanitarian disaster. We willis saying coordinate were strongly with his new team to route and bring il, the islamic rotter coles who are threatening to take over radicals who are threatening to take over. Some people think they need to slip a little further. Seth, talk about the risk in this and also the urgency of it and the necessity of it. I think when you take a step back and look at the role of the , theyc state of iraq. Overcame control of territory in parts of syria. They have expanded their control in multiple parts of iraq and threatened kurdish areas. I think there was no question at this point that there needed to be u. S. Participation to prevent them. Ore expansion by i think this is serious. I think the risk the president is facing is that he is now entered has entered the war in iraq on narrow humanitarian grounds. Generally in support of kurdish forces, particularly forces that. Isis is much bigger than kurdish areas so on the one hand, he is going to get a lot of pressure to expand into other parts of the country where isis is entrenched and on the other hand, there are still a lot of uncertainty about the future of political situations, particularly with maliki. What about maliki in baghada . It is unclear at this point whether he accept that outcome. There are some concerns and that he has reached out to some of the Security Forces within iraq. He may be bluffing in a sense to see how solid support is moving forward. There is a risk that we have several power centers. There is a growing concern across multiple organizations about a coup. Vice got to see isis. Tell me what you discovered and how you got there. Vice has been covering syria for the last year. We have been inside for several times. We have been able to contact them and bring stories out. We have met jihadis before. This time, we raced out to isis several months ago to try to understand what is going on and whether we can get inside. When we did that, very much a smaller organization. That changed. Theye time we got there, just got they establish the caliphate, the got bigger and grew bolder. How did they do that . They did that by, i think, the sunni population in iraq did not necessarily support all their methods, but because of what they were repressed by the allowedernment, the space. When they came back inside, they acquired money and weapons. What did americans know about isis . Morphing intohis something much larger and more dangerous . My understanding is that american intelligence officials were keeping pretty close track of the numbers of attacks. That had roughly quadrupled between 2011 which is the last year u. S. Forces were in iraq. And roughly quadrupled again by 2013. Violence levels were increasing. There was concerned that american analysts had with the quality of iraqs Security Forces as well as grievances by the sunni community. Therely summer 2014, was growing concern among u. S. Analysts about the growing level of violence by isis. The weakness of the maliki government and some fractures within the Security Forces community. By june, we really started to see isis move. There shouldve been little surprise that isis was trying to increase its control of territory. Potentially, some dispute over the timing of when they would make that move, particularly to mosul. The should not have taken anybodys by surprise. Last year, the outgoing end was warning that they were keen to expand territory. None of this was a secret to the white house. They route of the iraqi army much faster than we expected. Find a much more capable force which didnt turn out to be the case. We have continually unassertive underestimated the strength of our allies. What is interesting about that is that if isis were headquartered in pakistan or afghanistan or yemen, it wouldve been the subject of drone attacks for the last year or two. But because its center is in syria, the Obama Administration has a handsoff policy in syria. They have been allowed to operate unmolested and that has had obvious consequences. That brings me to your Hillary Clinton interview. Was she ready to talk about this . She knew she had to be more specific about policy. She understood that. Give me a sense of the context of this and why she chose to make this link to syria and a decision made by the president as well as the really provocative statement about having an operative policy or in organizing principle. Peter,ably like you and i assume Hillary Clinton does not say things by mistake. If you read the whole interview, i posted it on the atlantic website, the entire interview. There is nuance and complexity and on the one hand, obama said this and on the other hand there is a lot of complexity in it. But, i think she feels and certainly i know people around her feel that the last couple of weeks, the things that have happened in iraq and syria and lebanon, had vindicated the view that the United States should have tried much harder three years ago to build up a moderate opposition in syria that was potent, to shape the nature of the opposition. She said very specifically and very straightforwardly that the failure to be involved at an earlystage and building that kind of opposition created a vacuum. Into that vacuum came ices. Sis. T goes to a broader flopsy a broader philosophy. One of the more interesting things she said to me in the interview was that she started framing the struggle against terms. Ism in cold war she refracted this current struggle through the prism of the cold war. That is something that i do not think president obama is happy to do. He does not he talks about we had a struggle against an organization, al qaeda. We decapitated the leadership of al qaeda. He does not frame it in cold war terms and she is doing something here that is very interesting. She is saying this is big. This is hard. This is ideological and it will require us not to make believe the things that are happening in iraq and syria are not happening. I think that is exactly right. That is not the way president obama frame this. Wanted terrorism to be a challenge but not the wayular challenge in the secretary clinton indicated. He has said the tide of war is receding. We need to think about the ultimate end of this war on terror someday. She doesnt seem to see it that way. She seemed to see it more of a longterm existential threat closer to, and some ways, the way the previous president s administration. I am sure both sides would not like to talk about that comparison. Triangulating, to borrow a phrase from a previous residency. She is not bush or obama. Really is it that isis wants and how far do they want to expand and what they want to do with the state . We found it in the film of that they are ideology klee and religiously driven. It is chilling the brutal way they go about establishing a growing and expanding state. It pushes outwards to other countries. They want to keep expanding and sending their message. The people we came across, we interviewed were very clear. You are with us or you are dead. They are really straightforward about it. Does that come from islam . Absolutely. In one of the episodes, we go through the court system. We see the brutality and crucifixions. They are very clear that this is how life should be led and this is how people who will live on to them will live this way. We see their religious beliefs Walking Around enforcing this. This is an extraordinary thing that is happening. What is also an issue is that it is attracting people, it is drawing people in. Is drawing in foreign fighters, europeans, americans to join this jihad who share these ideological goals. How do you stop them . I think the most significant way to stop them at this point things. Tow thingwot address the grievances in iraq the many sunnis have. We talk about iraq is that isis movement. There are many sunni groups that are opposed to the maliki government and have come together was i with isis on the battlefield like the islamic army of iraq, like the 1920 revolutionary brigade which are not committed to an islamic emirate. There are some tribes that supported ices for the moment isis for the moment. One issue is the put together in a rack moment government that is more protective of sunnis. The other is to break away some of the sunni support base for isis because many of these groups and individuals, including tribes, do not support a longterm, the longterm vision of isis the way we have heard described. That is not their vision. And 2008, what06 we call the awakening against al qaeda in iraq and other provinces, to insurer, to promote, to support a groundswell of opposition. This is much different than back then. They are better equipped, they have more money and theyre going to be harder to dislodge from some of these places that they have now overrun. Peter, do you think the president is counting on other countries to help them . I think he would like that. History has shown there is a lot of evidence of that. He knows that the United States is uniquely responsible and capable of doing things that we wish our allies and wish our regional partners would do. Continuallyem to operate sometimes at odds with us. He is on the phone a lot these days with european leaders and trying to rally the traditional allies, but it is an americaniraqi situation with some help from the turks. My impression is that the saudis have basically said to those sunni groups and sunni tribes as they did in the awakening, split off from al qaeda then but split off from now, they are actively asking them to do that. The role of several of the gulf states it has been clandestine or covert. That is the case for some of the governments in the region their support. That is where we think we are seeing some support for u. S. Policy which is largely covert which is reaching out to some of the sunni opposition groups. I think that is where they can be most helpful. That is where i say the u. S. World can be most helpful is supporting some of the airstrikes with clandestine special operations and Intelligence Forces on the ground. I think it would be a mistake for the u. S. To start engaging this with a larger number of forces on the ground. They do not fear the bombing from the air. You think they can take it. They may want to because it attracts more attention to them . I think so. They are very sophisticated. They think this will help their cause. They are extraordinarily sure of what they are doing. What we found was this certainty, this ideological certainty of their mission. We heard earlier via rack army disappeared the iraq army disappeared. It is because of these guys will die for this. They have more equipment and more money than they ever had before. That makes them even more frightening and scary. I think they welcome the attention, this fight. This is not a good time for the president. He realizes something has to be done because it approaches genocidal nature yet at the same time he is reluctant to being dragged into this. He knows this will not be over in a day. This is going to be a longterm struggle, trying to prepare the country to an idea of this is not just a oneoff humanitarian airdrop and get the country comfortable with that idea while still reassuring the public that he doesnt plan on having a repeat of 2003. He doesnt plan to put Ground Troops in there. To try to define what his goals are. The definition of the goals have been somewhat elastic. It did start off as humanitarian and now with this new government emerging, it sounds more ambitious or potentially ambitious in terms of rolling back the gains ices have made isis has made. That weed it originally are going in to protect american diplomats and personnel on the ground. We have a lot of americans in different places around the country. Most specifically in baghdad. Becomes the definition for fairly expensive field of battle if you are going to drop bombs. The question is how far is he willing to go. How much is he willing to invest and we dont know that. How Much Division within the at the staten department over the options the president had or should exercise . It has been relatively they tell us, relatively insensitive. To people in the administration wanted to do this earlier and thought they did this too late. They say they shouldve gone an earlier. They captured mosul in june. This is not a new thing here. For the moment, you dont have as many voices on the other side saying do not do it. There was a belief there is not much choice inside the Administration Even if some other friends in the Democratic Party believe they should not. Thank you, jeffrey, peter, seth. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Keith olbermann is here. He became a household name in the 1990s as anchor on espn sportscenter. He jumped up politics for eight years and he hosted countdown, the popular new show on nbc. He had an outspoken opinion in journalism. August 2013, he returned to espn where he hosts a nightly show. Im very pleased to have him here for the first time. It is good to be here, finally. It is about time. I say this to you charles at cbs use to say when somebody walks down the hall and they know how to write, you stop and salute. I dont know of anybody in sports journalism who write as well as you do. I really mean that. It is a gift to be able to do that, to express yourself so well. Gwynn. Tter than tony unfortunately, i have a lot to work with under those circumstances. The life of tony gwynn. Me, preparing Something Like the obituary of tony gwynn, get out of the way of the story. That one tells itself. Sometimes you have to apply yourself and really write it and think about it. If you tell him what you know about something. Personalrly, if it is and not full of statistics and anything but an attempt to convey to the human being was, it will resonate with people. I am always flattered when someone mentions it. Whatever people felt about that piece, i attribute it to tony gwynn, not my work. Because you felt that way about that man . That man deserves the best thought you could possibly have . Absolutely. There are very few people who are your friendly love in any field. Who didnt like him . I am sure there were pitchers that held grudges but i never met anybody who disliked him. You know in that environment wear your heart on your sleeve when it happens, when a particular man is taken of that quality and that level of appreciation people have for him at that young age, just tell what you know and tell what you feel and you cannot possibly offend anybody. They want to know that. People have affection for so few public figures anymore. Public figures are there basically as easily hit targets. That is not the way people felt about tony gwynn and some other figures of his time and others. Was at the combination of talent and humility . And character. There are a lot of guys like that. They are stoic. All right, here we go again. Another person a public note derek jeter is tremendously respected and liked and admired, but i do not think anybody would ever think you will win some sort of americas got talent competition. Just because he doesnt choose to be that way. Tony gwynn never lost for a yount the sense of that were doing him a favor by letting him play baseball, that you were doing him a favor knowing who he was, saying hello to him, interviewing him. Felt honoredas, he that he was in a certain environment, he was in a position to be experienced the things he wanted to experience. The one story i told them the piece was of the 1998 world series at Yankee Stadium. I had known tony for about 10 years and one of the things he said as the San Diego Padres were coming to new york in these days of very limited interleague play. The padres never played at Yankee Stadium. He said he was delighted to be back at the world series. He said the real thrill was to hear the great yankee public address announcer say my name over the pa system. Justice say Something Like this indicates that what he happened to be was a big fan of baseball who turned into one of the greatest hitters who happen to produce a. 330 plus batting average. I knew bob sheppard and new tony gwynn and said they had to meet. Eye range for that meeting and tony gwynn talked about names and pronunciations and how do you hold the microphone for half an hour. At the end of it, i got bob sheppard to record the of battingn now for san diego, number 19, tony gwynn. And put it on one of these little talking greeting card things along with the pictures and send it to him. The next time i saw him he said it was in his trophy case next to his trophies for the batting championships. That is who he was. This memento of being a majorleague baseball player was as important to them as the memento of winning the batting championships. Did y