From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. We begin tonights with the ongoing conflict in syria and iraq. The Obama Administration had announced a coalition to combat isis cared they agreed that their goal is to destroyed the Islamic Militant groups and not to contain it. Joining me from washington is robert ford. He has had a distinct career and the Foreign Service of the United States at last served as ambassador r to dsyria. He resigned in june because he felt he could no longer defend americas polity. Welcome. Nice to be with you. I ask this question. The president calls you and says, ambassador, i know you disagree with some of the things i have done in the past, but im in a place, in between a rock and a hard place. Tell me what you think i need to know and tell me what you think i need to do. What would you say . I would tell the president that, for sure, the options in front of him all are difficult and there is no easy choice but he should take heart that they have had some success in iraq in terms of finding friends on the ground. Militia fighters. Iraqi army fighters, special operations forces. People on the ground we can help and with a judicious use of american airstrikes, those Friendly Forces on the ground have been able to blunt the Islamic States advances. Time, the president has said there must be a new government in iraq. If they want more american help, there needs to be a political politicalo the iraqi crisis. Those elements, mr. President , are good elements. Lets apply them in syria. The Free Syrian Army. Lets help them, but lets understand that there is going to have to be a negotiation between the opposition and the regime to get a new government that ultimately will rally syrians to confront the Islamic State. So, the president says, i hear you clearly, but isis has been achieving some victories, and yes, they have been stymied in iraq. But we know we have to get them in syria. The problem is, i cannot wait for there to be some agreement on a Coalition Government with assad leading the government. This is an emergency, and he west stop this now. It makes sense to me. What i would say is we want to blunt the worst of their advances right now in syria. The people that are fighting the Islamic State on the ground and fighting them hard are elements of the Free Syrian Army that are fighting them in places like aleppo. Lets get help to them. Maybe that is where some of the airstrikes need to go. But, at the same time, lets insist if the opposition is going to get help from us, in return, we insist that they reach out and work for a political deal with the regime. We have to have both. So the president of syria of the the president United States, why should i negotiate in a moment of strength . Im doing pretty well here. Mood to negotiate myself out of power. There are two things back on that. First, in fact, there are lots of people inside the Syrian Regime that are starting to wonder about where assad is taken them. Many of the, his fundamental community, are asking themselves if they want to continue this on this war. This endless war. There is a protest movement the building among his supporter ranks. Its called cry of the nation. a perfectot in position. Second we can go back to the russians and to the iranians and look, we are willing to do more on the Islamic State, but we, like you, a sustainable solution to this. We need a new government. We agreed on that in geneva. Geneva did not go anywhere. Lets find a formula to get back to a negotiation for a new government, even as we work to contain the Islamic State now. So, one of the president said, investor, i know how strongly you feel about the ev assad government, but isis is a bigger problem. And we really have to move rapidly. Yeah. Well, i think there are steps they are taking. Some of them seem to be entirely appropriate in terms of lining up Regional Support to act against the Islamic State. Block up efforts to the flow of foreign fighters trickling into syria to join the ranks of the Islamic State. Looks spot on. If there are additional steps that regional governments can take to shut off money flows. Looks spot on. So although, we have to understand the Islamic State has oil wells others its own financing. But there are steps that can be taken now to reduce the power, to reduce the influence of the Islamic State. By all means, lets work on that now, but lets also understand that without boots on the ground, and they certainly do not suggest american boots on the ground in syria, without friendly boots on the ground, we are not going to be able to eliminate the Islamic State. It did not work in iraq. It will not work in syria. Taking stock there are people making this argument that cooperate with assad now. Hes got troops on the ground. Isis is his sworn enemy. Lets do that now and we can do with the future later. What is the problem with that argument . There are many problems, but lets look at what happened in syria today and yesterday. Most of assads military forces are not hitting the Islamic State. Let me say that again. Today and yesterday, most of the time over the last three and a half years, assads military forces are not fighting the Islamic State. They are fighting the free syria d army because assa understands that that is where the threats to him politically comes from. So if youre going to align with overlook thee to cooperation that he and the Islamic State have enjoyed for most of the last three and a half years. Second point, and this is very important, assads forces are tired. That is why they lost three big military bases in North Central syria inth the past month. That is why theyre about to lose a big airbase. The idea that assad suddenly has military forces able to expel the Islamic State. I do not see those forces on the ground. Third point, the Free Syrian Army is the one that is fighting Islamic State hardest right now. They have fought them to a standstill in aleppo, which is better than any assad forces have done. I think in terms of sheer practicality, helping the people who have been fighting the Islamic State daily since january makes the most sense. I will not go into how if we lined up with assad it would be he and histo baghdad recruiting efforts because then he could say, the americans have anded with the Assad Iranian regimes. I hear you. In the end, is syria going to be divided . ,here will be a sunni region there will be something else. That is not hard to imagine. At minimum, i expect that what ever, over the very longterm, is agreed to politically between the opposing sides will involve a high measure of decentralization and local security. Alewias part of the minority, i certainly would not b securityve sunni ara forces in my town. I would want people from ivillage, from my town in charge of security. From my village. These are things that we have heard in iraq. That is what the sunni arabs are saying in mosul. These things are not secret. The way ford, the trick is getting people to the table. And the trick is getting people to come to deal. What role would you have the russians and the radiant place . The iranians play . I would like first to agree that the Islamic State is a threat. Shar militarily is not the way to go. I think the russians think bashar is the only means to contain the Islamic State. I think, franco, the russians need to talk to the Free Syria Army and understand better what they are. Ive always encourage the Free Syrian Army to go to moscow. They need to do more of that. I think theyians, themselves, my sense is they have abandoned maliki when they understood he was not the solution to the Islamic State problem. I think they must be looking at alassad specially after the loss of those military bases and wondering, how long do we stay with us guy . But there was an alternative in iraq. The opposition and element of the alewi Community Need to think about alternatives. Do most of the people that you know and respect share your view about the possibilities and the strength of the Free Syrian Army . The people who follow this the most closely on the grou nd, who are looking at reports coming out of arabic media and talking to people on the ground, agree that the Free Syrian Army is still viable. I was in detroit last week at the Islamic Society of north america, and there was a military analyst thre, jeffrey very respected. He agreed that the Free Syrian Army is viable and this is the best way forward, given the growing exhaustion inside the ranks of the assad regime. How serious a threat do you view it . I take with the director of the National Center for counterterrorism says, that they do not have information about imminent strike, but i also read media, iabic social read threats from some of these fighters to go over there. Boy, they do not mince words. They say, were bringing jihad to the United States as soon as we are finished over here. I take them at their word. Even if we do not have a problem today, i think we will have a problem. We have to deal with it. You speak the language, what has been the historic mistakes of the United States in the arab world . I think two things. Fixt, a sense that we could all the problems. We cant. The people who live there on the ground, who do not leave, who stay and live there, they have to fix the problems. And so, we should not have a sense of hubris about what we can achieve. We have to be realistic about that. When we do intervene, when we do get involved, again, why was talking about before the strategic patience i am always very pressed with the ira nians. They are very patient. Extremely patient. You have got a lot of conflict over there. One, the conflict between iran and saudi arabia. Iitehave to sunnish conflict, and others. Can we ameliorate those . In some places weekend. In some places, we cannot. Schism dates back 1400 years. I do not think the americans are going to solve that. Although, we certainly do not want to see it escalate and we have to understand and respect it. Yeah, exactly. I have to tell you in my own career is someone working in the region for a long time, i underestimated the importance of that schism. It wasnt until i began working in iraq that i began to see how deep of important and how important that schism is. In many cases, i think the americans can play a useful role. Look at how we helped facilitate the peace accord between egypt and israel, which has served both countries and served us. We played a helpful role, for example, with jordan and israel, concluding a peace agreement. Certainly, we have helped iraqis move forward in the postsaddam period developing a constitution and holding elections. And so, there are things we can do, but sometimes the cost is very high and we do not see quick results. If we line up with iran and shia sponsored malicious, does that hurt us . It goes back to what i said about, i do not think has a lot hezbollah is going to travel hundreds of miles each into Eastern Syria from lebanon. I do not think theyre going out there. Tobollah is now having recruit kids that are 16 years old. They have never done that before. They are not happy with that. So, i would not depend on them. And the same thing with the iranians. Ranians have got their arms fulls in iraq. What you see as the developing relationship bet betwen the u. S and iran . The Nuclear Issue is a huge obstacle to developing a relationship. In some places, there may be security interest we share. For example, the Islamic State, but if we are concerned about iranian efforts to become a ofional hegemon, because its nuclear program, then we are not going to be able to work with them on other regional the admin session has placed a priority on getting a solid the administration has placed a priority on getting a solid deal on nuclear enrichment. And what role does the absence of any kind of success in creating a palestinian state that does not threaten Israeli Security play in this conflict . In general, the arab palestinian dispute does not figure highly in the syriairaq dispute, except one thing. I keep going back to this about the recruitment at extremist groups like al qaeda and the Islamic State use. They use that altar time, that we are the ones that are going to liberate palestine. The americans have no credibility. They are israeli puppets. More broadly speaking in the morocco to from oman, there are a lot of people, especially the Younger Generation that i would meet who, when i would tell them im from the United States embassy, even if they did not slap me over the head, there was an element of dissatisfaction that there had not been the establishment of a palestinian state. I would not say it was their number one concern. I would not. But is it a concern and is it a source of dissatisfaction . Absolutely. How concerned are you about libya . I do not know that much about libya, frankly, but i think it shows how difficult it is when ifse military regimes fall you do not have a political andess in place, a durable sustainable political process, how bad things can become. So, when we think about a place like syria and compare it to iraq. In iraq there is a political process. It is not fun to watch all the time, but it is there. Now, iraqis are negotiating a new government. So, there is a process. If and when if and when assad goes, there has to be a political process in place to develop the new government. That is just essential. I think that is the message we have to deliver clearly to the russians and the iranians. This is not about toppling the assad regime. I never thought we could topple the regime. This is about getting to a negotiation. And you think assad is willing to negotiate . No, i dont. But i do not think but i himk people who support think that a negotiation will be the best way in this messy attrition where 12 of the population do not bet on them in a war of attrition. Those people are still in syria . And have influence . They cannot raise their heads very high out of the foxhole or the regime will c hop them off. This week,earlier was arresting a number of young people who had been considered supporters of the assad regime a nd now are voicing dissent. Arrested. Immediately so the track of this with the Free Syrian Army is for them to put forward a proposal that alewis can look at and begin to get a sense that there is a third way, that the choice is not limited to assad or the Islamic State. That there is a third way. Beenu must have enthusiastic when you saw what happened in tunisia and in cairo and there was arab spring coming and mistakes may have been made here or there in terms of how we support a certain regimes and did not support certain regimes, but when the history comes to be written about what happened to the arab spring, what do you think it will say . I do not think the arab spring is finished yet. This is a process. In tunisia, theyve had a lot of ups and downs. They have even had assassinations committed b y extremists. The party with the largest bloc in the parliament, the muslim brotherhood, backed off. Voluntarily gave up the Prime Minister position and other senior positions in government and created a new government, which has produced constitution with wide approval. On elections,ed and even agreed on an election process. So, tunisia, later this auto, wi mn, will have elections. There is something to be hopeful about there. One of the things i think the arab world needs to see is a good success story. Nowadaysstruck how young people from morocco to saudi arabia are on the internet, they are on twitter, they are on facebook, they are and watching what is happening in countries next door and farther down. They Pay Attention to this. And even a small country like tunisia can have a big impact. So, i do not say it is easy. I do not say is going to be fast. Remember what i said about patients. But it is possible to imagine that stepbystep some of these countries are going to move in the right direction. Investor for ambassador ford, it is a pleasure to have you on this program. It was my pleasure, charlie. Thank you. We will be right back. Stay with us. Charlie rose on bloomberg television, is brought to you by boeing, where the drive to build Something Better inspires us every day. Hegeneral tony zeni is here. Has served as commanderinchief of u. S. Central command and special envoy under george w. Bush. He retired in 2000 as a fourstar general after a 40 year military career. He examines u. S. Foreignpolicy and proposes changes the way we approach the decision to wage war in a new book. Areore the first shots fired, how american to win or lose on the battlefield off the battlefield. Let me talk about where we are today in so many crisis. I will incorporate the book as you wish. So, the president is in europe and is having con