From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie Eugene Oneill is one of the greatest playwrights of the 20th century. He wanted the nobel prize for literature. Onewon the nobel prize for literature. He has been called the father of american theater, paving the way for arthur miller, Tennessee Williams come and tony kushner. His life was hard. His mother was a morphine addict and out the hall at. Oneill channeled life into his work. The iceman cometh is one of his most powerful plays. He describes as a big comedy that doesnt stay funny very long. It focuses on the regulars of a new york city saloon who have numbed themselves with alcohol and delay acting on their dreams. The play was revived at chicago. That production is currently at the Brooklyn Academy of music. A reporter from the New York Times says it is enacted by a cast that is not likely to be better this season. Joining me now are two Tony Awardwinning actors. Nathan lane and brian dennehy. Im pleased to have them at the table. Welcome. Nathan thank you. Always a pleasure. Charlie you saw this production was going to take place. You said, this is right for me. You notified the director . Nathan yes, it started off in a bar. He said to me you know nathan, you cant just talk about these great parts, you have to do them. Cjharharlie ive never thought of that. Nathan he said you will learn a great deal. It doesnt matter what anyone else says. Later on i read an interview in variety with brian. There were talking about potentially revisiting the iceman cometh. They had done it together in 1990. Charlie is there a character he hasnt played . [laughter] nathan when i heard them discussing this, i wrote an email to bob even though i didnt know him well to say, i would love to play hickey. Here is my reasoning. Fortunately, he responded positively. We got together and started discussing how we can do it. Charlie how do you see hickey . Nathan when i read the play when i was a kid and got a collection of Eugene Oneill plays and i read the iceman cometh i was drawn to the character hickey because of the description that oneill writes, that sounds a bit like me. He describes in his and rolypoly and with a button nose and a twinkle in his eye. He always writes long descriptions of characters. Rather too specific for everyone to live up to. [laughter] what he created i thought, and what i was bringing up to bob in the email, it is defined by jason peters he was the gold standard. 1956 when they did the revival offbroadway. That defined who that character is. It was much darker than the original production in the 1940s. Jason brought this this mischievous benevolence and otherworldly quality to it. I was saying to bob, wouldnt it be interesting taking what oneill has said about him . The notion is he loves these guys. Just as he ultimately says he killed his wife and it was an act of mercy, out of love, he had come to help them and change their lives and bring them peace. Unfortunately, he feels the only way to do that is to kill their illusions, their pipedreams as they are often called. I thought it has to come out of that. It has to come out of love. Not that he is trying to destroy them, that he is trying to help them. In a way, that is more disturbing. The fact that it is a joyish thing and is so offputting that this person that they love so much is driving them to do this thing. For him, he is in a semidelusional state. He feels that this last act which i dont think well bring him absolution, but it is a way to prove to them and to himself that what he did was right. Ultimately, his pipe dream is that he did this out of love. Charlie he is doing this for them. Nathan yeah. Charlie is this a different hickey than you conceived of him . Brian yeah. It is interesting. When i started working, all i knew was jason along with everyone else. When we started rehearsal almost 30 years ago, im just going to [laughter] it was not so easy to do. I finally realized after coming with bad Jason Robards interpretations, i said that i couldnt do that. I came up with the happiest guy in the world. This sunny salesman of death. Big smiles all the time. Big hearty laugh. Slowly becomes obvious to the audience and the people on stage that he is selling something that is not quite as advertised. Charlie is he selling it out of love . Brian sure. It is an interesting discussion that goes on constantly with people like ourselves who deal with the play and the character just how crazy is he . Crazy enough to know exactly what he is doing in terms of embracing his craziness . Crazy . Not crazy . Nathan he sort of compartmentalizes all these things. He knows he is going to turn himself in. He knows he is going to make a phone call to the police. He knows that people he knows what he did is wrong technically. [laughter] charlie technically . Nathan shooting your wife in the back of the head in the middle of the night is technically wrong. He knows he must be punished and ultimately, that is what he really wants. He wants to be punished. It is always what he wanted from his wife. But she kept forgetting him. This unhealthy, codependent relationship where she keeps forgiving him and he does love her that is a theme of the play. Its the one theme is that a man cannot live without his illusions, the other is that how does love and hate coexist within a person. Brian the only way he can stop her from forgiving him is to make sure she is dead. Otherwise, she would forgive him. Pull the trigger. I forgive you. [laughter] nathan it is an unraveling. In the fourth act when he famously to prove that he was right, he recounts his life story. He leads up to the night of the murder. As he is going along, he wasnt planning on telling the story, but he has to. He is driven to do this, to prove to them. These revelations start happening. It is like a therapy session. Somebody says tell me your life , story. And you start. And you Start Talking about things he didnt expect to talk about. It takes some place else where you think, maybe i was wrong about this or that. He slowly starts to unravel as he is revealing more and more. You see his own selfloathing and shame of what he did to her. It is like a story in the new york post. [laughter] and you would say can you , believe this happened . And yet it did. Because we are human. Charlie has this done all the things he said it could have done for you . Nathan without a doubt he was right. It was prophetic. Charlie that was 10 years ago. Nathan yes. It took a while to get me to chicago. Look, i instigated the whole thing. Fortunately it was a huge success, which led to us doing it again. The perfect venue, the beautiful harvey theater. And an Extraordinary Company of actors. It is a Remarkable Group of people. I think that is what is making this so special. Yes, it has lived up to those expectations and more. Charlie you want more . Nathan sure. Who wouldnt . I know there are certain look, anyone in show business, there are certain preconceptions about them. And we think we know them because of one or 23 things they did that was successful. That is the person i know. At my age, im told i have more to offer and wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to do it with bob and brian. I knew that was a way to do it. Charlie this is what bob says about you. He says it is a mark of brian that he moves through these roles and he knew he was the right age for slade. Brian yes. He is reverting to the system whereby the brits start out playing a young man par and then moving up as they get older. I guess that is true. I feel comfortable with slade, especially since he sits on his ass the whole play. It is an interesting and complicated part. In many ways it is as complicated if not more so than hickey because although hickey has all of the hard lifting to do larry has some stuff to work out, especially with the kid. It is a similar situation, a parallel track. Except in larrys case, he finds out that the real generous thing to do is to make sure that this kid kills himself. Which he assists him in doing. Were are talking oneill world here. Charlie a dark world. Brian very much so. What is interesting is the darkness of it. It was written at about the same time he was writing a family play. It was apparently an ordeal for him. Very difficult in california in that house. He wrote a letter to a friend in new york. He said i have got to stop , working on the play. It is much too complicated. Im suffering. I am now writing something that makes me laugh every day. [laughter] nathan he did love these guys. He is at a point in his light in his early 20s and he attempted suicide. This is where the harry hopes to learn is based on. Harry hope saloon is based on. That and the golden swan had a back room called the hell hole these guys saved his life. These were the guys that saved his life. A character was a scottish reporter who saved his life in the attempted suicide. I think that was always in the back of his head to write this play about a group of guys most of them were based on real people except for hickey. Did you know he was reading a lot of nietzsche . Carrying around the birth of tragedy. Charlie while he was writing this, he was carrying it around. Nathan yeah. Obviously it is influenced by other plays. But nietzsche was a huge influence. Charlie did you do all this insight into oneill after you got the part or are these things you have been curious all along and have been studying . Nathan i was interested in the play, and when i knew i was going to do it the year before i started doing research about the play. Charlie you started in 1973 in doing your oneill character. First brian yeah, throwing those numbers at me. The first oneill play i did i think was 1973 at the quake theater with bill hickey. Wonderful character. Tremendous guy. Who had one little problem he had trouble learning his lines. There are two guys at sea and one was dying they had been buddies for year. They had been buddy for years. We go into this tiny room. 25 people watching. He goes i wasnt talking about those women on the shore. What was her name . Rio de janeiro. Remember that one . What was her name . Consuelas . Thats right. [laughter] i had to give him every line. What was that restaurant . That would take a phone call. Im doing my part and his part. And of course, they scream for him. [laughter] nathan i like the other version of that. And actress worked with an old british actor who had difficulty remembering his line, when he would go up some with politely turned to her and smile and say, so, how is your father . [laughter] it was all on her. She talked a lot about her father in that play. How is your father . Brian there was a player named ron dean the first time we did it. Nathan this is good. Brian ron had a checkered career. Spent a little bit of time in prison. I think 17 years. But in any case bob took a , chance on him. When he realized what he had taken on, he said to the cast, i have got to have an escape mechanism. So when i am talking, when i have the speeches, if i say, oh boy, i know the line. I am going to come up with a line, but im im going to say oh boy. Be ready. I will get there . But if i say, oh boy, oh boy, we may skip a little line. [laughter] if i say it three times, its every man for himself. [laughter] charlie they say to do oneill is tough, like climbing mount everest. Who says that . Brian of course it is. Charlie what does that mean . Why is it true . Nathan he is asking you to go with him. He is very brave, what he is writing about. He is asking Big Questions and big emotions. Some people would call it operatic. He is asking all of us, and particularly hickey in the fourth act, to go to the most personal of places and it is inescapable. If it is going to work, you have to go with him and be as brave as he is in the writing. You have to expose yourself in a way that it is really difficult and personal and it is like diamond cutting. It is delicate. You have to expose yourself in a way that is difficult. We have talked about that challenge of doing it every night. John slattery came the other night. He was saying how do you do this , every night . How do you get there . And i said you just try. You dont always get to the top. That is the challenge. If your agent regrets telling that last story, send it your letters to brian dennehy. [laughter] everything ok . Time for the medication . Brian wait until i get a hold of you. Nathan there you go. You know that you are only human. You are relying on many things. Charlie do you know why you get there some nights and why you dont . Nathan why you get into the zone . Charlie you said some nights you cannot get there. Nathan yes. Sometimes you see where this zone is and you get there technically. That, i dont know why. It is not science. It is human chemicals. As much as you prepare sometimes you are in a very specific moment, a quiet moment, and someone in the audience goes [mimicks loud coughing] and that could throw you. Brian or they go [mimicks yawning] give you one of those, theyre good. Nathan that is what live theater is about. It is about trying to keep a large theater people from coughing. As someone once said aimlessly said famously. It is about concentration and focus. Charlie did you get prepared for this more than anything you have ever done . Nathan without question. Charlie because it was a leap . Nathan a huge leap for anyone. A huge degree of difficulty that is up there. Brian the other thing too, is he is not the most adept writer of phrases. He will back up on himself on a phrase. It does not necessarily come out as easily as it could. Mary mccarthy, who was a famous critic for the new yorker back in the 1940s was the curse of a lot of playwrights. Always said the same thing about oneill as she did about others, that they were not good writers, but great writers. Meaning that they were not particularly facile with the language and the characters and the verbs in the nouns. In a way, for example, lets say updike was. Charlie they were great at understanding of the human condition . Brian they insisted on going to the deepest, darkest parts. Arthur miller, who i was privileged to work with, talked about the differences between a lot of these playwrights. He always said that oneill was the deepest diver. And that he wasnt he was interested in the soul. Charlie is that the reason you have done so much . Brian i find it interesting. It has been my Great Fortune to do a lot of parts. Oneill parts. To suddenly discover yourself in a place where you are digging away at a very fundamental part of your own being and you realize if i keep doing this i could do myself a psychic injury charlie but you cant do it well unless you do that . Nathan that is what it is about. If you dont, it is disappointing. It is frustrating to you as an actor as well. They call him the american shakespeare. The language you are talking about, i love his language, this play in particular. But you need to know how to handle that amount of language. Brian he repeats himself. He wants to repeat himself. People say he says the same thing over and over again. That is not true. He is repeating himself for a reason. He is a teacher. And he wants you to hear it and again and again. One people say we have got to take this out, they are missing the point. That is the way he wants it. Nathan it is like music. A variation on a theme that he comes back to and changes it just a little bit you see why he has changed it and where the characters head is going when he changes the language. It is fascinating. A thrilling challenge. Brian a huge challenge. The men gave birth turning his mother into a morphine addict. And she stayed one for 30 years. Charlie was it difficult . Brian yes. Very interesting device here. The father refused to hire a good doctor for eugenes imminent birth. They used a hotel doctor. The guy was terrified of it. She hadnt assisted in any births. She was in great pain. He apparently cut her a little bit and overwhelmed her with morphine. Turned her into a morphine addict. I guess thats the way you make a nobel prize winner. Turn your mother into a junkie. Charlie did she remained that way for the rest of her life . Brian all of this stuff was his life. His brother died roaring in the hospital as the irish say, from acute alcoholism at the age of 37. Couldnt even walk anymore on his feet. There was a tremendous amount of pain of what he did to his kids. All of it ended in these extraordinary words. Dealing with those events and a lot of other events. Charlie i hate to ask this, but is there one of the three that you prefer . Brian there is one that i love that is not necessarily regarded as one of his great plays. It is a play not about huge terrible passions and events, but its about a little guy who has screwed himself up and refuses to admit it. His life is full of minor injuries, bruises, and cuts. That is huey. I love playing huey. It is not massive pain. He is a little guy who thinks his life has been worth it and successful and as he talks about his life we realize what a tiny, small, disaster it has been. Not a big one. Charlie a death of 1000 cuts . Brian not even the death of 1000 cuts. Is the death of 80 of the population. Charlie they had been living an illusion of some kind . Brian still living it. Charlie you think that is 80 of the population we know . Brian i was raised in an irish family. I have seen a few deathbeds. That look and feeling of, was this ride worth it . Just recently in fact. That is what huey is. He is a life adding up to 40 or 50 years of certainty. Knowledge of who he was. What he could do. What his chances were. And failing at every single thing. Charlie i think someone said this about iceman, that this is about his role as a catalyst. More about him, it is his role as a cattle . As a catalyst . Do you think that . Nathan yes. Not just as a catalyst for the characters in the play, before the audience. This is a confrontational play. As much as he experimented in his early career with greek tragedy, more stately mansions in the south or whatever it might have been, this was really an experiment, an emotional marathon that goes on for close to five hours. He wanted the audience to feel trapped. He wanted them to suffer with the people on stage. Charlie make it uncomfortable. Nathan the audiences that come, you feel that. More than any other production they feel this is more confrontational. You do start to think about your own life and your own pipe dreams and illusions and what is true and what isnt. Charlie in the end, they hang on to those illusions. Nathan they go back there. In this production, hickey gives them that. He is about to say to harry, i must have been insane to say what i said to evelyn after i killed her. He says, you have been insane this entire time. Harry wants to be off the hook. He starts to say, i cant let you get away with it he sees him start to shrink in front of him. From my point of view, he is giving him and all of them the gift back of going back to their illusions. He says, yes. Ive been insane the entire time i have been here. It also allows him to go back to his own pipe dream of hi