From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie do you care that they say, lee kuan yew has created a miracle in singapore but he is authoritarian, he doesnt care about democracy . He cares little about free press . Doesnt care . That he knows what is right for singapore, what is right for the people, and that he is going to see it the way he believes it ought to be come hell or high water . Lee kuan yew lets put it in a more objective way. I have to govern now, 4 million people. 3 million are singaporeans, one million are foreigners. Who get jobs in singapore. And of that one million, 100,000 are professionals. Why do they come . Because it is a thriving economy that gives them jobs, and their families are happy and safe. No drugs, no muggings, no rapings. You can walk the streets at 3 00 in the morning and you are ok. How was it achieved . You wont see any policeman. You wont see soldiers lining the streets. Every four years to five years i had three new might mandate as a free election. There are about five or six different parties that will spring to life one year before the elections and try their luck. And in the last few elections they devised a new strategy. They knew that people wanted a pap government, but wanted opposition. So they say, right, on nomination day we will contest , less than half. So the php has already formed the government. And it worked. And they want forth seats. Four seats. But what was the concessions they made, that the people wanted a php government. So why should i be authoritarian when i have the people with me . That is what the people wanted. They wanted a high quality of life, low crime rate, a good future for the education of their children, and jobs. Better homes, better hospitals and a Higher Quality of life culturally. Charlie did you have an internal belief in markets, that somehow you had been convinced that markets was the way to go and that competition would produce an economy that would be competitive . Lee kuan yew it wasnt that simple. By 1965, i had traveled all through the whole of africa, 17 countries. I went on a special mission. I have traveled widely in asia and in europe. And in the region. I have been to indonesia, malaysia. And i have seen what did not work. First, leaders became soft. They promised the world, follow me. In fact, in ghana there was a statue of the leader, and he called it black star square. There was a statue and a plaque that said seek ye the kingdom , of politics and all will be unto you. I thought, god, that is blasphemy, but never mind. But it wasnt. And it wasnt awfulness. You could see the thing wasnt working. It had all of the symbols, that square, marching troops. We had to feed 2 million people. How . Agriculture was negligible. Commerce was coming to an end. Industry was in its infancy. So, i had been to see hong kong, the nearest to us. But hong kong had a British Government which assured military defense security, and stability. And british capital. And i had none of those. I thought taiwan, they had an american alliance. So somehow i had to get this thing going. So we tried many things. We brought kermit garment manufacturers from hong kong and taiwan, textile mills, started our own glass factories with our own cash, when we did not have silicon to make those bottles. We sold it later. Trial and error. Finally, i spent one term at harvard. As what luck would have it that was the height of the cultural revolution in china. Charlie right, in the 60s. I met a undp expert. He came to see me one day. He said why are you looking worried . I said, i am enough spot. He said, imagine how much more difficult spot you would be if you had 100 million japanese as your neighbors instead of indonesians. [laughter] that set me thinking. Think what you can do or what they will do to you. Charlie provider market . Lee kuan yew no, take you over. So i said, there are 100 million arabs that refuse to train. They leapfrog. Flowers, fruit, in winter to europe. Many other things, but starting with very simple agriculture. In my term at harvard, i met many people economists those who taught me. Charlie economists . Lee kuan yew i also met many businessmen. And i decided we would leapfrog a different way. We would get these big american multinationals to manufacture in singapore and reexport to the world. As luck would have it, the cultural revolution made them bypass taiwan, hong kong. They came to singapore. Texas instruments, hewlettpackard, you name it. Seagate became the biggest manufacturer of disk drives in 20 years. We were the center for disk drives. We never looked back. The other side of the coin, i came up with the idea that people would come here and explore the region. It is a dangerous region with pestilence, malaria, typhoid. Here in singapore, we will create a first world oasis out of this island. It was a third world island. We will create a first world condition. Charlie from first world to first . Lee kuan yew yes. So that they can base camp here and venture out. When they are sick they can come back. So we had first world standards of infrastructure, roads, airports, seaports communications, health schooling, personal and public security. Later on, we added concepts, but the basic was first world. That was easy. The hardware. The difficult part was getting the population behaving like a third world to start behaving like the first world. Charlie that is what i want to know. How did you do that . Lee kuan yew people use to make fun of us because foreign correspondents used to watch us with this campaign. They would say stop spitting, stop littering. I said lets do it differently. You cant do silly things like you did before because you want to be hosts to first world guests so you cant be peeing , all over the place. Like you did in the old squatter villages. There were a few who were still troublesome. So we installed in the left, special instruments that would stop the moment you did that and we would apprehend them. [laughter] charlie its funny, but it worked. Lee kuan yew it was real. Then they opened the lift door and peed from the outside in. [laughter] we installed a camera that would catch them from the outside. So it went on. But it improved. I am not saying we are there but if you want tourism you have to have public toilets. And we did not have that. So we had to get a campaign saying flush it you stupid man. You oh it to the next cap chap. It took some doing. We are not there yet, but we are getting there. We still have people with mobile phones at concerts. Charlie what do you do to stop that . Lee kuan yew you catch all of them. Charlie you also have one of the highest rates of Capital Punishment. Lee kuan yew that is for drugs. Charlie because you think drugs deserve to be treated with the maximum punishment. Lee kuan yew if we could kill them a hundred times, we would. Because you destroy whole families. It is terrifying to see. You are drug dependent, you steal, cheat, rob your parents. It is so destroying. They come in knowing death is there found. But the rewards are so great. And they try very unusual people, women from africa come to sell close, and in between the clothing were kilos of herion. Charlie you say that if you bring heroin into singapore, you hang . Lee kuan yew you hang. Anything beyond 10 grams, you hang. Charlie if you are convicted of bringing in more than 10 grams of heroin, you hang. After a jury trial . Lee kuan yew no jury, judge. A judge listens to the evidence. And if you are guilty, you hang. Lee kuan yew yes. And they still come. Unbelievable. Charlie do you believe Capital Punishment is a deterrent . Lee kuan yew without Capital Punishment, our transit rate would quadruple. And our internal consumption would go up by a multiple of 10. Charlie do you believe in the idea of a free press . Lee kuan yew i believe in the truth. Charlie that is different isnt it . Lee kuan yew i dont believe in putting a spin on things. I think they should print the story and editorialize separately. And not skew it with headlines and sub headlines putting it in the inside pages. Charlie do you believe if someone said singapore, this modern city state that pretty , much escaped most of the asian economic crisis that plagued japan, thailand, indonesia malaysia. You were relatively, compared to them immune. , lee kuan yew yes, not immune but our damage was collateral. We would lend the money. And when money was pulled out of the region, they pulled it out of singapore as well. Charlie you seem to believe not in the individual, but in the state. You seem to be much more of a statist than someone who is such a fan of free markets. Lee kuan yew there is a profound difference in the core philosophy between the american and the chinese. And it is a reflection of your history. You came over on the mayflower, you were seeking religious freedom, so much so that you you refused it to be allowed to be taught in schools. You believed in the individual as the creator of all things and you captured the wild west. On horseback, main street, you be mayor and i am sheriff. We built a goldrush town. Or cattle or whatever it is. You have been immensely fortunate and successful. To world wars left europe in shambles and you emerged undamaged and technological and industrial power. China has a completely different checkered history. 40005000 years of up and down. Long eras where there was no government, anarchy. Warlords. I once had a chinese masseur and we were talking. I said, during the war what , crazy did you use . Japanese currency. It was in japanese controlled areas or other areas. I said, how many currencies are there . Two or three . He said, 14 or 15. Depending on which warlords area you are in. Why have they survived in spite of anarchy and disaster, floods, famines . Because there was a social network independent of government. It sustained them. The immediate family, the extended family, the clan. You owed them in obligation. You cannot turn them away. That is how they survived. I would be loath to believe that in singapore you will never have anarchy. That there will always be government that will provide for social security. That has been your experience. Im not sure that will be singapores experience. I think we are safer if we keep those family bonds, those traditional liferaft systems not dependent on the state. Which places the emphasis on family, extended family, and then the government. And not the individual at the expense of the family and state, which is the american system. So you have bill gates, forbes or fortune, 58 of the best and the brightest and wealthiest. That is your experience. That is not chinas experience. That is not our experience. Yes, we also want to try and get our bill gates going. But, in the context of keeping our Society Solid so that we will survive as a people. You have never been occupied. You have only had one civil war. Quaint the traumatic experience. So you will never understand what it is. I have been occupied by the japanese. It did not represent me. There was no human rights. The first thing i saw two days after they came in when i went out to buy some food, two human heads on a pole outside the tallest building in singapore, and chinese characters that said if you are not well behaved you , will end up here. I thought to myself, if i only had this camera. Here was a modern building, i was in singapore then, and this medieval scene. So the japanese never talk of human rights. Because they understand that brutality and cruelty they inflicted on fellow asians who they came to socalled liberate these are realities. , why did they succeed . Not because of individual japanese hair was in but because as a group they were a powerful force and they still are. Charlie you in fact believe that it is not impossible that they may once again be a powerful military force with ambitions that could lead them to war . Lee kuan yew i wouldnt say exactly with ambitions, but i am quite convinced they can become a very powerful military force. And if cornered again the way they were in 1941 with an oil embargo and no exports, rather than curl up and die they will fight. It is in the nature of the culture of the people. They are not people who will lie down, carla, face the wall. Charlie would you fear the japanese more than the chinese . Lee kuan yew with americans around, i fear neither. Charlie why . Lee kuan yew because i think there is a balance. The United States together with japan will be able to balance china. Charlie and that is the way see the future, a strategic balance between United States and japan and then china. Lee kuan yew absolutely. I dont think the japanese would be wise to go it alone. And they know it. I dont think the United States alone can take china and japan. Charlie japan and china, it would be culturally unlikely to happen. Lee kuan yew very. Charlie what do you regret most , so far . Lee kuan yew it is a parlor game really. So many things to regret. But what i regret most is the years we spent building up the momentum from malaysia and breaking it off in less than two years. It never got a chance. If there was a stronger Prime Minister in malaysia, who was prepared to give a more equal balance to people in malaysia, the story might have ended differently. And it would have been better for all of us. Charlie because singapore combined with malaysia and all of that meant a much more powerful point of leverage. Lee kuan yew not for me, but for the people. They would have had a better life. Charlie you and i had a conversation once about a whole range of leaders. You said to me that the man you most admired was xiaoping. He admired you too because he sent 30,000 chinese to singapore to figure out what youre doing am i right . Lee kuan yew yes. Charlie what were you doing that he wanted to see . Lee kuan yew he was astonished when he came for the first time in 1978. To tell us to prevent vietnam from invading cambodia because they were doing it on behalf of the russians. Then he found a singapore which was contrary to what he was given in his brief. Charlie yes. Lee kuan yew he found a prosperous, orderly society. Everyone owning their own homes and with a job. He said, how did you get there . I said, we educated our people. And look at all these companies americans, japanese, europeans , they Bring Technology and train our people. We learn how to do things. And because we are cheaper after a while we became general managers, managing directors and we learned how to do that. We become suppliers to them. So he said, you made use of capitalism to build a more egalitarian society. Everybody owns her home. I will do the same. Charlie and he did. Lee kuan yew he did. He went back and created 12 special economic zones. All the coastal cities. And it succeeded. Charlie he was the greatest menu government, because he understood because the results . He change the nation, and therefore lee kuan yew no, he is a member of the old guard. He chased the kmt out. Charlie he was a victim of the cultural revolution. Lee kuan yew yes. But he was realistic, he knew the system was not working. He knew that they were going to end up down in a deep hole. [laughter] and he decided against all of the advice of his fellow old guard. That we will change course. Charlie and he had the brains and power to pull it off. Lee kuan yew yes. And when they tried to stop him, he went down and said, learned from all of the countries in the world. Most of all, learned from singapore. The order is good and they are a very prosperous society. Charlie what is the most important change and significant change in your way of thinking about the world over the last 20 years . Lee kuan yew that the impossible can happen. I never thought that the soviet union would implode so easily. And i never thought that the chinese would abandon the communist system and move into the free market so readily. It was unthinkable 20 years ago. Both has happened. The world has changed. Charlie and it is not clear exactly how it lee kuan yew no, it is not exactly clear when it will happen, but that it will happen now in the longterm, 50hundred years, yes. Charlie and the center of gravity is shifting to asia. Lee kuan yew it must be because the population is there. The talent pool of 1. 3 billion people, plus japanese and koreans, vietnamese and others. It can match europe and america. But that talent pool was inert did not have science and technology or did not care. But now, everything that you do, asia is doing. You go into Stem Cell Research we go into Stem Cell Research. They have to go into it in order to get into a field with where the chinese cannot compete. The chinese are in it in a very big way. They are watching you and whatever you do. They say, we will do that. They charlie they are enormously curious. Lee kuan yew not just curious but enormously ambitious to catch up. Charlie for good reasons and good ends . Lee kuan yew [laughter] that you must ask them. But i think they have a sense of frustration that they were down for so long. Lets make it now. We have a chance. Charlie the United States has to encourage them . Lee kuan yew no you dont have to encourage them. They dont want to be an honorary member of the west. Unlike russia. They are quite happy to be chinese and remain as such. When you tell them you ought to do this or that, they say yes, thank you. And in the back of their minds we have lasted 5000 years, have you . Charlie is there a different chinese attitude about the future than the United States . Lee kuan yew they do not believe that works what works for them works for other people. We have special circumstances that allow this to work. I am not interested in changing regimes. I deal with you as you are whether you are a dictatorship or tribal leader or whatever. I maintain good relations. I need your resources. Lets do business. There is no evangelistic urge to change things. Charlie is america a proselytizing country . They want to sell their values . Lee kuan yew [laughter] it always has been and always will be. That Everyone Wants to become like america. Which i dont think it can be, but they want to try than the ahead. Charlie some people look at china and say there has been no google, no facebook developed. No microsoft. And that says something about the educational system. Lee kuan yew harley, but partly because they are controlling. But they do not like the established order to be grand. Threatened. To allow something to be borrowed and tested out. Why take the risk . Lets play it safe. If you let 1. 3 billion, then you will have chaos. They are capable of thinking of new things. I will give you an example. I go on the computer for translations now. And it is all done free. The chinese had done it. You can do wonders with it. You can do anything you want to do on the internet. There is no need to go to google. Charlie a chinese Sea