Set. We should also work with the coalition and the neighbors to impose nofly zones. That will stop assad from slaughtering civilians and the opposition from the air. Charlie french president Francois Hollande has urged the United States and russia to cooperate against isis. President obama expressed doubts about working with moscow. President obama there is an increasing awareness on the part of president putin that isil poses a greater threat to them than anything else in the region. The question at this point is whether they can make the strategic adjustment that allows them to be effective partners with us and the other 65 countries who are already part of the counterisil campaign. And we dont know that yet. Charlie joining me now, general david petraeus. He was commander of u. S. Forces in iraq and afghanistan. He later served as director of the Central Intelligence agency. Today hes chairman of the k. K. R. , global institute. Im pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome. David thanks. Good to be back. Charlie we talk about areas that you know a lot about. Tell me what you think ought to be the considerations both offensively and defensively. As everybody seems to agree isil isis now has a global strategy and a global reach. David it certainly demonstrated that over the last couple of weeks with the attack in sinai, lebanon and then obviously in paris. If we can just step back for one moment, though. I think we should really acknowledge two key lessons from the postarab spring period. The first is that ungoverned spaces or even inadequately governed spaces likely will be exploited by extremists who want to foment disorder and wish us ill. Second, there is no substitute for American Leadership in contending with such situations. Clearly i think the paris attacks, developments in recent weeks show that its time for a reassessment of the strategy. To ask questions, i think, about is the Mission Statement broad enough, are we taking all these steps that we can, are the rules of engagement overly restrictive, should we deploy Additional Resources and so forth . And youve heard, we heard former secretary of state clinton outline her plan, which did indeed call for a good bit more action, including a nofly zone. Something that i also strongly endorse and spoke about before the Senate Armed Services committee a month or so ago. Charlie what is the strategy, you think, of the president today . David first of all, the president has asked the military for additional options. And so its very clear that what he wants to do is accelerate this rollback, if you will, of the Islamic State. But there are a number of components to that. In iraq, for example, first of all, the center of gravity, the whole effort in iraq is actually in baghdad. Its iraqi politics. Those have to be inclusive, if you can have a sustainable set of achievements there. Because rolling back the Islamic State without having forces that have legitimacy in the eyes of the people, the sunni Arab Community of iraq, which became alienated once again under the previous Prime Minister, that just wont work. So youve got to have sunni arab forces that are ready to hold areas once theyre cleared. And we really havent yet had to contend with that in a big way, though certainly tikrit was such an operation and that does seem to be held now by forces that are quasilegitimate in the eyes of the people. When they take ramadi and especially when they take back mosul, there has to be a plan for that hold force. Charlie whats your assessment today of the willingness of the sunni tribes to participate against isis . David my understanding is that they are quite willing. What theyre waiting for is the authorization from baghdad in some cases, for us to provide additional assets to them, Additional Resources, and indeed theyre waiting for some kind of official approval for their status, if indeed theyre going to become part of the National Guard. Charlie this is in the hands of the iraqi government. David it is. This is why i stressed earlier that the center of gravity of this effort really is in baghdad. The iraq effort, that is. Syria is a different issue. Sunni arabs have to be brought back into the fabric of iraqi society, as we did, by the way, during the surge. One of the key surge of ideas, one of the biggest of those was to make the sunni arabs feel as if they had a stake in the success of the new iraq, rather than a stake in its failure. Right now theres a little indecision still on that. Charlie how do you make them know they have a stake in the future of iraq . David the representatives to approve this National Guard initiative that the Prime Minister has put forward. This has been stalled in the council of representatives. The Prime Minister has directed some actions to go forward. But something that formally acknowledges their role and frankly formally acknowledges theyre going to receive salaries and so forth if they put it all on the line and help out with the clearance and then the holding of major cities like ramadi, fallujah and, above all, mosul. Charlie anything else they need before theyre prepared to go forward against isis and lead a sunni charge that would join with the rest of those forces that are allied against isis . David yes. Obviously theyll need weapons, theyll need training, theyll need equipment beyond that. Now, again, there are thousands of these forces that have already received that. But this is going to take a good bit more than that. Remember how intensive it is in terms of people to hold areas. And we learned that during our previous experiences in iraq. This time we should not be the ones on the ground. I believe that. But we should have advisors down at brigade level. We should have joint Tactical Air Controllers ready to help out additional advisor teams. Charlie this is not just special forces or is it entirely special forces advisor teams that will work with sunni arabs who may be joining the war . David the core of the advise and assist teams right now comes from conventional Infantry Brigades and theres an 82nd Airborne Division headquarters that is over the top of that particular effort. My recommendation is indeed to extend that, not just at Division Headquarters but to push them to brigade headquarters. Charlie so theyll be embedded with those fighting on the ground. David thats exactly right. Thats sufficiently close. It will help out much more. I think youll have much more closer integration. And then i think you also it have to look at the rules of engagement. By many reports theyre so strict that there is an approval process thats required, that its not the kind of streamlined effort that is necessary, certainly no one wants to see civilians killed or Collateral Damage. But this is war and i think theyre probably going to have to relook some of that as well. Charlie let me go through that. Thats important. The question is, what can you do on the ground . What should the rules of engagement be . David well, reportedly right now its essentially no civilians killed in any action. Charlie we cant do anything that might lead to the Collateral Damage to civilians. David there is an exception process, reportedly, that exists. But the question is, again, is this too strict . Certainly look, we had a sign on the wall when i was in iraq that asked, will this operation create more bad guys than it takes off the streets by its conduct . And you have to constantly keep that in mind. But i think, again, theres a strong feeling among many who are out there that this is a bit too restrictive right now. Charlie this goes beyond special forces which the president consistently mentions. David yes. Again, the advisor teams are already there. They come from Infantry Brigade combat teams, not special forces. Charlie will it take more of them to embed with at the brigade level . Charlie certainly. If you have more advisor teams youre going to need more. I havent done the math because i dont know the specific number of brigades in the fight. It shouldnt be every brigade in iraq, just those two are going to be engaged in these operations to clear the remaining areas in which the Islamic State is located. Particularly out in the west in anbar and up in the north in mosul, which is the capitol. Charlie do they work with iraqi militias, shia militias . David no, they dont. As you know, there have always been concerns about us being the air force for the iraqi shia militia, supported by iran. So thats been a sensitive issue. And essentially what is happening is that the iraqi army and some Iraqi Special forces elements generally lead the way, we support them and in some case you have the shia militia behind and in some cases theyre separate. Charlie theres a specific rules of engagement in terms of we dont help the shia militias with the air force capabilities . David its tough to ask the folks in the pentagon, certainly. But my understanding is, and its been a point of sensitivity all along, that, again, the degree of cooperation, coordination with iraniansupported shia militia has to be very, very strictly limited. Just to that of deconfliction through iraqis not currently with them. Keep in mind, if i could, these are elements that are being paid by the iraqi government, theyre getting salaries from the iraqi government. But theyre actually responding to sort of quasilegal leadership, which is in many cases influenced quite directly by the head of the cuds force of quds force of iran. Charlie do you believe there are Iranian Forces on the ground . David there are certainly advisors, no question. This is not like syria where you have Lebanese Hezbollah and shia militia and so forth from outside the country that are actually engaged in the fight. Certainly in syria, a number of quite high ranking quds force officers have been killed. Charlie after the taking of sinjar, how long will it take to mount an attack against mosul . And is that the next priority . David i think the next priority is probably the ongoing operation in ramadi. But the significance of sinjar is that that cuts the main supply route that was left from the capital of the Islamic State to mosul in syria, again, really the capital of the north of iraq, as it has been historically. The very important location for them in iraq. Probably the Central Location in terms of importance. Charlie what is your assessment and from what you know of the military capabilities, military capabilities of isis . David the Islamic State really is three elements right now that you have to think about. Its a conventional army. Thats really what came into iraq and seized these different strategic cities, that was literally threatening the very gates of baghdad, if you will. Until it was rolled back over the course of the last year or so. But still holds very significant parts of iraq and certainly large swaths of syrian people, say roughly the state of indiana in size, to give some perspective on that. Theres a conventional force. Territory they hold. Theres a conventional force. Theres also a terrorist element. Because they still continue to carry out terrorist acts in baghdad and in other cities in iraq, often targeting shia sites, trying to foment civil war, as indeed their forbearers did, al qaeda in iraq did so successfully to create the spiral of violence that escalated so terrifyingly in 2006. And then there are also already guerilla or insurgents. One would suspect, as their conventional forces are degraded, defeated, rolled back, that they will certainly try to leave as many of the terrorist cells and insurgent elements in the country as they can. Charlie it is argued that Holding Territory that they hold creates a socalled caliphate. The iraq Islamic State. That is part of a narrative that is attractive. David its very, very important. And the reason for the need for urgency, if you will, is to show that the Islamic State is a loser. As long as the Islamic State is seen to be a winner, it will have much greater success in social media, which is an element of their capabilities that has really distinguished them from core al qaeda or the original al qaeda. Charlie and not only in competition and in warfare with its enemies but also with competing david absolutely. Charlie islamic groups. David quite right. Theres quite a tug of war going on among these Different Groups, each trying to get as many adherences as possible, trying to make inroads in afghanistan, for example, trying to make inroads in yemen, sinai, libya. A number of different locations where the Islamic State has spread its tentacles. And again, nothing succeeds like success in the recruitment of jihadis. Charlie there is al qaeda, then there are al qaeda affiliates that we often talk about. You look at mali, that was an al qaeda affiliate. David we believe so, yes. I havent seen the exact attribution of that but the expectation is that that is al qaeda in the islamic lands. Charlie and you have al qaeda affiliates in the rest of the world as well. In africa, especially. David in yemen. In afghanistan. Small. But still there. Certainly. Charlie when you move to syria, what are the options in syria . Where the russians have changed the dynamics of the game. David they have. They have added a huge additional level of complexity to the whole affair. And its important to note right off the front that russia is hitting the people that were supporting, our guys, if you will, on the ground, even more than theyre hitting Islamic State with their air power. Thats largely because the forces that we have been supporting have generally been seen as a greater threat to the russian airbase and the russian sea base, both on the mediterranean coast. Charlie do they have anything to do with the support with the time that you were with the c. I. A. And there was an effort to support moderate forces, are they the same moderate forces as in 2011 . Are they the same moderate forces or is it a Different Group of moderate forces . David thats obviously something i couldnt go into. Some others have commented on that. And ill let them speak for themselves. Charlie is there, from your assessment, a Strong Enough moderate force for us to support or do we have to, you know, essentially rebuild and try to create a group that can compete against isis . David there are forces in the south and the north that have a reasonable degree of capability and what we need to do is enable them further and we need to protect them better. And this is where the nofly zone comes in, the socalled safe haven or enclave. Charlie when you say nofly zone, the president says isis has no air force. Thats his response. David this gets to the heart of the issue. The disconnect, if you will. We want these guys to fight the Islamic State. These guys want to fight alassad and the regime which they see as responsible for the deaths of 300,000 syrians and the displacement of far more than half of the population. Of course the regime being shia supported by iran, Lebanese Hezbollah, the quds force and others. And the opposition being sunni arab. And they feel very much by the way, of course the sunni arab is vastly the majority in the country. So that is the challenge that we have. And i think we have to commit to support them against the regime as well as against the Islamic State. Noting that i am not one who is in a hurry to get rid of Bashar Alassad until we have a sense of what might follow him. He cant be part of the solution. Hes the Magnetic Attraction that brings individuals into syria and that has indeed made the Islamic State able to recruit from abroad as well. So he is ultimately not going to be part of the solution. Charlie when he uses barrel bombs against his own people. L. F. O. And other places. David exactly. And what we have to do is say, look, if the barrel bombs continue, well ground your air force and we have the capability of doing that. Now, were also now, though, the added complexity is to deal with russia. And there we need to have some coordination with them and explain, look, these guys are our guys and if you keep going after our guys, at some point were going to have to go after your guys. Bashar alassads guys. Charlie your guys are in fact in this case assads air force. David exactly right. Charlie we should ground assads air force. David yes. You can ground the fixed wing pretty easily. Just crater the runways. The rotary wing, helicopters take a little bit more. But we have the capability, its very doable. Charlie why dont you think the president does it . Or the pentagon . David in the beginning it would have been much more complex. When he had an intact, integrated air Defense System that was quite sophisticated, i think this would have taken a good bit of effort. That is not intact anymore. Beyond that, we can do a lot of this without ever having to go inside the air space. Charlie do we know how much the russians have, in their support of assad, helped him rebuild that or david we know where the runways are. We know where the aircraft are. And i think we can deal with that. Thats something that is doable. Charlie and we should do it now . David i believe we should. If we dont, again, these forces will ultimately gravitate, as many others have, to either