Every lead lead nowhere. It was frustrating. We were asked to do very hard things. We can let the terrorists thrive or we can disrupt the plans. If some future president is going to decide to waterboard, he better bring his own bucket. Charlie joining me now are the filmmakers. Chris is the writer and executive producer. Jules and gideon body directors. Ive i pleased to have been at this table. Great to have you here. How did this project and underway . As journalists and documentary filmmakers, you see a closed door and you want to open it. We had done the chiefs of staff, the men who keep the president s secrets. We thought that these are the guys. The cia directors keep the nations secrets. It is important to know, this is not a history of the cia. This is the story of 12 men who led the most powerful Intelligence Agency in the world. It is a very human story. The table, around and we were constructing the arc of this film, we agreed early on that every act should be an ethical dilemma. Because everyone faces life and death decisions. Every day. Charlie was there a Common Thread among them . Yes, i think they are patriots. Patriots. That is a given. You dont get the job if they are not. For me, the humanity. Normally you see the cia in stark terms. The first meeting that we had, general hayden told us that he said the American Public is bipolar when it comes to the cia. We are either seen as jack bauer or jack the ripper. Want people are missing is that there is gray in the middle. These are human beings who struggle with tough decisions. We learned that they are in charge. Charlie it is never black and white . It is never obvious. Never. I think it comes back to our previous documentary. If it is easy then someone else will make the decision. They always get between the hard and the hardest. Charlie was it tough to get them . It was a challenge. It was a war of attrition. There was one director after another, we kept her week, we week after week, we were lucky to get george h. W. Bush first, he is revered by everyone at the cia. Charlie he said to me it was his second favorite job. Exactly, and probably close second. George tenet was the last holdout. These are the talk about a shakespearean character. Charlie how is he shakespearean . Imagine if you had, on your watch, the attacks of 9 11, the enhanced Interrogation Program , which many called torture, and then weapons of mass destruction . Charlie so, he was criticized . Yes. This was a guy who faced life and death decisions but also decisions that changed the course of history. Fascinating. David petraeus was another shakespearean character. Talk about a fall from grace. Charlie sure. It is a remarkable cast of characters. Some of the most interesting characters in the film where the operatives and analysts. Gina bennett, probably one of the women who inspired the Jessica Chastain character in zero dark 30. Fascinating. , hes a character right out of the maltese falcon. He is a straight shooter. He helped the French Corral carlos the jackal. He later became head of the counterterrorism center. He was one of those who warned that al qaeda was coming prior to 9 11. Charlie what did he say . Picture thatlling he paints, and george tenet paints come in the months preceding now 11. Preceding 9 11. The information that we have now compiled was compelling. It was multiple sourced. It was the last stroke. Straw. We had top the phone, go see the director now. George tenet is a very smart guy. He is chewing on his cigar. He is going back and forth and his eyes are flashing. It isnt just red lights. These are real plots being manifested. The threat continues to rise. Public pronouncements by people in al qaeda was that there would be eight major celebrations coming. They world would be stunned by what would happen. We decided the next thing to do was to call the white house and say we were coming there right now. I said connie, i have to see you. We are coming right now. Present at the july 10 white house meeting is Condoleezza Rice and other top officials. There will be significant terrorist attacks coming in the next weeks. The attacks will be spectacular , they may be multiple. Al qaedas intention is the destruction of the united dates. I said that this country has to go on a war footing now. I slammed my hand on the table. Charlie doesnt get any more dramatic than this. These are great storytellers. Rodriguez. Jose what we loved about those thectors, they present air prospective. They really provide the sense of immediacy. As they are doing that day in and day out. All of them are fascinating characters to tell these meaningful stories. Charlie was it hard to get to come on board . I think he liked the film. We sent him the script, and we sent the rough cut. He called us back and said, yes, im ready. Charlie did he talk about homeland . Very much so. He was deeply affected what had happened. The story of the gravities. And how all of the controversy about the show being unfair to arab muslims. He very much wanted to set the record straight. When we had dinner with him in berlin charlie you are filming for homeland . Yes. We managed to invite the three artists for dinner and he wanted to speak with them, hear their grievances, and talk about how the show should be different. We thought it was extraordinary. It was so open. Charlie the film itself, how would you characterize it . Is this a sense of how the cia tries to figure out who it is and what it is about . For me, it is a couple of things. First and foremost, perhaps the , overarching theme is how far should this agency go to protect america. What are the rules of engagement . Does the cia go far enough, does it go too far . That is number one. The other part that is equally fascinating to me is the humanity. Charlie the humanity. The humanity of these 12 guys. I will give you an example. When we started the program we had no idea that this would become act one. But when down leon panetta sat down and described rest, minute forminute detail, the Ethical Development he faced as cia were when he was at the funeral for one of his young officers, Elizabeth Hanson in Arlington Cemetery he gets word from the cia Operations Center that they have in the crosshairs of a drone, the mastermind of the suicide bombing that killed this woman and six other officers. Charlie the dr. Who got inside and the jordanian doctor who had been vetted by intelligence but turned out to be an al qaeda sky spy. It was the worst day in recent cia history. The truck bombing in beirut. Charlie continue the story. He gets word that they have this guy who is a really bad guy. The mastermind of the operation. But there are women and children in the shot. As he put it. Ordinarily, he says when there are women and children, we dont take the shot. So he wrestled with this. He is a devout catholic. A former altar boy. He always carries his rosary beads. He says is hail marys when he faces a tough decision. He walked us through that iocess, and you can see think, the agony he went through making the decision. I dont know if you are me to want me to tell you what the decision was. But it was a life and death situation. Panetta, interestingly, has been around, he was shocked by the extent to which the cia director had to make life and death decisions every day. Charlie i want to talk about enhanced interrogation, a classic discussion that is back in american politics because donald trump yesterday said that we ought to bring waterboarding back because of what isis is doing. Take a look at this, number two, this clip. Here it is. Under cia supervision, dtds detainees would be slapped and grabbed, deprived of sleep, forced onto liquid diets. Even confined in a coffin like box with live insects. There was nudity. Water dousing. Cramped confinement and stress positioning. Then there was the infamous technique waterboarding. The body responds as if the body thinks it is drowning. Am i happy that we had to do it . Of course not. The president looked at the techniques and i do not know what techniques were taken off the table. I do not know, nor do i recall which ones were taken off of the table. There are some inside the cia who have grave doubts. There were a number of those techniques that i personally felt were inappropriate. Not necessary. Beyond the pale. I was a senior officer at the time, and i had expressed my discomfort and my concerns about these techniques, believing that they were going to come back to haunt the cia. I did that with individuals, colleagues at the agency. Charlie we were just talking about waterboarding. Your point was . Khalid sheikh mohammed, for example really bad guy killer , of daniel pearl. Charlie he boasts about that to this day. Right. He has not too much of a problem with waterboarding. Over 510 sessions, over 183 times being doused with water. He knew that the cia would stop after 10 seconds. He would count. They would see his hand counting , and then he would look at them and say, ok. But what really got him was sleep deprivation. For most of them, that was really what worked. Charlie why is that . The body breaks down. Michaelink it was hayden who says, the point of the enhanced interrogation is to ring them to the zone of cooperation. They dont ask questions when they are doing it. It is not like movies. They waterboard them, they bring them to that moment where they give up. Between the lack of sleep, the temperatures, you dont know where you are and then you start , because they start to talk, because they cant take it. Whats happening now is what happened in paris, when we did the interviews a couple of months ago, they all were saying about isis, when the bad guy tells you they are going to come here and get you, you Better Believe it. The claimant that they were seeing right before one happened , in paris, it was the pre9 11 climate where we did not really believe them. And right now, the question we are facing, and the french is facing, of waking up and saying, ok we need to implement. Charlie it has often been said that they has said they were going to do it, they laid out the plan, and then they did it. Did you come out with a sense of what kind of interrogation works . Other than enhanced. We came away that there is absolutely passionate disagreement among the directors, the socalled wartime directors, who followed 9 11, george tenet, mike hayden, even mike morel, who was acting director and also under obama, will all tell you. He put it succinctly. He said theres absolutely no doubt in his mind that enhanced interrogation techniques saved lives, disrupted plots and took , al qaeda combatants off the field. On the other hand, you have the other directors passionately opposed to torture. David petraeus will to you that who is hardly a bleeding heart, who had more detainees than anybody in iraq, thousands of them will tell you that the most effective way of interrogating is that it takes time and skill, but the most effective way is to become their best friend. It is interesting to see, even leon panetta he does say at the end, you know. Hold on. If there is a scenario with a nuclear bomb in new york city. We have the guy who knows. It is very hard not to try everything at your disposal to get it. So they all say they are against it but there is a caveat. Charlie the interesting argument about that, which they do not necessarily close the circle, is that they say that people who are tortured will say anything, just to stop the torture. On the other hand, you dont have time to be the guys best friend if you heard the bomb is going to go off in 24 hours. That is george tenets point. Day for say, every three years after 9 11 we would , face the threat of a ticking time bomb. There were Credible Threats that bin laden had met with nuclear scientists. There was credible intelligence that there was a bomb in new york city. No bomb was ever found. Et would say this it was this was a ticking time bomb situation. Thats the difference, in between these two camps, the wartime directors and the others. As george tenet and others said, until you were there at the meetings, every single day, having these horrible report of what is coming, how they are going to get us, and where and when, it is hard to judge what they did at the time. Charlie it wasnt just the men and women in the field who were doing this sort of, what we would imagine from movies about spying. Analysts,really smart back at langley, putting two and two together. Absolutely. Especially for the bin laden cell, named after the son of the leader of the unit they were mostly women. They were called the sisterhood. And they were the incredible force behind these analysts. Just like gina bennett. A mother of five who would been at the cia since the 1990s. And these are the people that is where you have the parallel with homeland. Although Michael Hayden would me, carrie was working for minus the drugs and sex and bipolar but the level of passion and addiction to the work, that is what drove them day in and day out to amass these mountains of information. Need analytical minds, brilliant ones, and these were the great women behind it. In the shadows, they are responsible for the analytical work. These are the women who helped. Youve also put your finger on a critical issue. We called it a battle for the soul of the cia. It is really a battle among the directors about what the issue mission of the cia should be. Has the cia become seduced by covert paramilitary operations, that it has neglected the analytical side . Robert gates was eloquent on this. He said, imagine how different the world would be if we hadnt gone into iraq. If they had gotten weapons of mass destruction right . And we had not invaded iraq. This is the kind of stuff we used to be really good at. But when you focus too much on Covert Military operations and drone strikes, you pay a price by neglecting the analytical side. Charlie the movie is called the the spymasters cia, 80 years on saturday, this saturday at 9 00 on showtime. It is an extraordinary film. Thank you for coming. Good to see you guys. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Sure, tv has evolved over the years. Its gotten squarer. Brighter. Bigger. Its gotten thinner. Even curvier. But whats next . For all binge watchers. Movie geeks. Sports freaks. X1 from xfinity will change the way you experience tv. Charlie sir tom jones is here, he is known simply as the voice. His full throated, unmistakable singing has helped him sell more than 100 million records and lots of hits in the United States alone. He is a wide range voice with the force of an entire brass section, or possibly a wind tunnel distilled into a single instrument. He has now written a book that chronicles his career. Over the top and back. He has also just released an album. Here is tom jones, performing Elvis Presley blues from his new album, longlost suitcase. Tom i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died the day that he died i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died the day that he died just a country boy that combed his hair he put on a shirt his mother made and he went on the air and he shook it like a chorus girl and he shook it like a harlem queen he shook it like a midnight rambler baby like you never seen, you never seen i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died, day that he died. I was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died day that he died how he took it all out of blackandwhite grabbed his wand in the other hand and he held on tight and he shook it like a hurricane he shook it like to make it break he shook it like a holy roller baby with his soul at stake, his soul at stake i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died the day that he died i was thinking that tonight about elvis the day that he died the day that he died he was all alone in a long decline think how happy he was when he laid down and died and he shook it and he rang like silver he shook it and he shines like gold he shook it and he beat that steam drill, baby well bless my soul, whats wrong bless my soul. Well bless my soul what is wrong with me charlie i am pleased to have sir tom jones at this table for the first time and what an honor it is. Welcome. Tom thank you. Charlie music began for you when you heard rock around the clock . Tom that is when i heard of rock n roll. I was singing since i was a child. I was born in 1940. My mother said i could sing before i could walk. She used to carry me in a welsh fashion. The women in wales strapped the baby to the chest so she could get on with the housework. Apparently, my sister, who is 6yearold are then me was a calm child and when music would come on the radio when i was a baby in this shawl, i would start to move. My mother wondered what she had given birth to. Charlie did you have tuberculous . When i was 12. I was bedridden from age 1214. Charlie bedridden . Tom bedridden. I stayed home. Because when they discovered that i had it, there were these tb hospitals in scotland and switzerland. They wanted to send me there and charlie they were sanitariums, werent they . Tom exactly. My mother made me well. We lived in a threestory house and they put me in a room on the middle floor. My mother was up and down the stairs all day because the doctor said, he cant worry about anything. Thing. Is the worst dont let him worry about anything. She took it to heart and she nursed me through it. Charlie you have said an interesting thing to me and ill tell you why. You said to be great in music you have to have young ears. Tom yes. To keep them open. To hear new sounds. There are some people who have been in the business for as long as i have and they say, it is not like it used to be. Its all changed now. But it hasnt really. You still have to get up in front of a microphone and sing. I have always kept my ears open. I have always been interested in new sounds and new singers. An oldieant to be but goodie. I want to still be in the ring. I am proud of the records i have made. At the time they were made they were very good records. They stand the test of time. But i dont want to live in the past. I dont want to go on the road and say, oh, i will do the greatest hits forever. Charlie how do you take care of your voice . Tom i drink plenty of water, get eight hours of sleep as possible. Alcohol. N tehe i have never gotten into drugs. Alcohol you have to be careful. Everything in moderation. I have learned that over the years. Charlie how many dates do you do each year . Tom i used to do about 200 each year. Some years were more shows than others. But i did a European Tour in june and july and august. That was packed for three months. So i am always singing somewhere. Charlie are you happiest when you are singing . Tom definitely. I dont know what life is like without it. A