Mateen that we know so far . What is it that we see in this man, in terms of influence, in terms of his own vulnerability to outside forces, ideas, ideology . Mr. Murphy charlie, i think at is core, it is symptomatic of what we have seen in these other attacks that we have had in the United States from the lone wolves, or as director comey would like to call them, lone rats. He fits that similar profile. He follows muslim extremism, he is radicalized. From what we know at this point, he was radicalized over different methods over the he followed different terrorist groups, although there were a variety he espoused support for. Some of them really did make didnt make sense, because some of them were terrorist groups that were actually in conflict with one another. The pictures so far is that he did have leanings towards the violent extremism under the islamist name. Charlie what do you think of the information he left on his computer and cell phone . Mr. Murphy it might be sloppy tradecraft, it might be he made a decision at the last moment. I dont have an insight today of what was left on his devices. Some of those individuals have improved their trade craft, and that has to do with the snowden affect and the knowledge of how western Law Enforcement agencies collect information on terrorists. With this individual, maybe it was sloppy tradecraft. Maybe he was not prepared. You have seen some of the others have actually had a longer planning period. I dont have insight as to what is planning period was at this time. We hear there are indicators of violent behavior, hatred towards others, but at this point i think you have to let the investigation, the fbi, and state and local Law Enforcement finish the investigation to kind of map out motives, how long it took, what was his path to radicalization, who he was in touch with. Charlie two was he in touch with, what was he watching, all of that is part of the investigation process. Mr. Murphy absolutely. They are going to look at the family connections, the afghanistan and pakistan connections, the leads worldwide they are working on. Domestic, every place he traveled. The bureau, when these events happen, they seem to be occurring more frequently, which is something we need to address. They need to see if there were steps missed, and i think director come he has outlined at himself and said they will be reviewing this. Right now, they are still full steam ahead, trying to figure this out. What motivated him, was there anybody else involved, who actually inspired him, and any other connections he may have. Charlie what do we know about frequency . The idea that these things are happening with more frequency. We see patterns developing, the kinds of locations that were chosen. Clubs, theaters. Whether it is paris or orlando. Mr. Murphy we need to evolve quickly, and that is my concern, that we are not agile enough to keep up with this threat. The threat is different than it was five years ago, or even four years ago. The al qaeda threat and other terrorist organizations had a command and control structure. Law enforcement could map that out, find people, listen to communications. Now with encrypted communications and with isil or isis, there is not a command and control. Harm those in the United States and take soft targets. That is in their messaging back and forth. We have seen a shift. There is a lot of criticism about the fbi, that this individual was under investigation, but there is a lot of reasons for that, why they investigated for a certain period of time under the legal requirement they have. The threat is different. We have not evolved quickly enough to change the threats that the fbi is under. Those guidelines need to be modified, and the need to be modified so that they can take a longer look at some of these individuals that may be terrorists. Charlie it is the basic question of journalism, who, what, when, how, and why . Mr. Murphy most definitely. The fbi can do three types of investigation, and it is all based around not violating civil liberties. When they work this investigation, if they dont find that this individual was an immediate threat, and what they say, someone is going to create harm, and they dont have enough evidence at that time, it will go from 30 days to six months, to a year, and if you dont find anything under that period of time, and under the requirements and guidelines set down, the fbi agents have to close the case. Charlie at the same time, i would assume that you learn from every person that commits an atrocious act, and then we go through this sort of analysis and investigation, and everything you learn adds to the body of knowledge about making a judgment about who is at risk. Mr. Murphy yeah, but this is where the key point comes in. I have heard that quite a lot. You. Up on the hill. They are already moving bills to give the fbi more money and to change some of these requirements, but when they say judgment, an agent can have a strong suspicion. An agent can have a spidey sense, that this individual is not right. However, that does not answer the bell when it comes to the legal requirement, what standards the fbi or held to. Investigators came in after 9 11 to the fbi, and they are very experienced in counterterrorism. They have to put some meat on the bone to make sure there is a strong case and enough justification to continue to investigate a United States citizen, because then they get back to if they just do mere suspicion or make a judgment based on risk, we fall into a trap of looking at everybody because they have a sense i dont think thats where they want to go. Charlie you are saying it is the constitutional questions that have a real impact. Because if you dont have anything, you cant continue the investigation, even though you may have something. Mr. Murphy absolutely. They are under strict guidelines on time frames. When i am looking for at this point, those are strict timelines that they are under to conduct these investigations, and they are supposed to use the least intrusive means necessary so they dont violate someone. Someone might have called in a prank call, saying someone is a terrorist, and the fbi is to figure that out. They have certain periods of time or they may want to go back and be agile enough to increase those times where we have people under suspicion so this type of event does not happen. In this case, if you could have extended it, and he was still on a terrorist watch list, the fbi would have been notified of a gun purchase, and they could have gone back out and intervened at that point, but they were not allowed. We have to look at some of these policies and procedures, and also some legislation, on making changes. We will have to do that very quickly, because you are going to see more and more of these types of attacks. Charlie do i hear you saying that if the fbi has enough resources necessary to engage in this investigation, it has to do what . Mr. Murphy i think the threat has been changed, and there is a finite number of resources. Director comey said he has the resources to do the job. They might not have had the resources in this particular case, and that might be what he is referring to, but if you are asking me today if we have enough counterterrorism resources to address this new threat, absolutely not. Right after 9 11, we had 10,000 agents in the fbi. An oped in the Washington Post was written, saying if you want the fbi to attack this problem, they need another 10,000 agents tomorrow. He had 10,000 agents then, there are now about 13,500 agents to cover. Those agents are not all working counterterrorism. There are so many other areas they work with. Violent crime, organized crime, whitecollar crime. Think about those 13,500 agents and start cutting them in half. There are not enough resources to cover this threat. Charlie is it simply agents and time . Mr. Murphy it is not just agents. The organization has become dependent on other individuals supporting the agents. It is a number of resources. When i say time, yes, they do need more time. We probably have to look at additional authorities, because there are certain activities that you can do under certain levels of investigation. If it is terrorism, we might want to expand those authorities. I think that is something for the doj, the fbi, the legislators to look at. In terrorism cases, should the fbi be given more expansive powers to continue these cases and do other investigative means to determine if the individual is going to be a threat . Charlie do you believe it is the lone wolf, or the lone rat theory, as james comey said, acting due to changes in their motivation or influence, perhaps from the internet . Or, do you believe the threats will come more from directed attacks from isis . Mr. Murphy i think it will be from the lone wolf or lone rat. Directed attacks are hard to pull off at this point, because of the effective job of Law Enforcement and intelligence agencies around the world. But it is very easy to recruit over the internet, to recruit through their media arm, and to get these individuals that are either likeminded or disenfranchised with the current country they live in. If you look at this over the last 15 years, you saw that we are actually following europe. They had this problem before we had it. We seem to be following them from three to five to seven years. They had a huge immigration problem with terrorists and disenfranchised youth. We are now faced with that same problem. If you asked that question tenures ago, the answer was that would not happen here, but that is what is happening, so you will see a lot of individuals being recruited that are unhappy with their current place. They may have mental issues. I think you are also seeing the uptick and Mass Shootings. Just because they were not tied to the ideology, it is a mass shooting, but when they are tied to ideology, thats when we have the terrorism angle. You have seen an increase in Mass Shootings in this country as well. I think well see both, and i think we will see more if we dont to our capability in the terrorism front to get some of this off. Charlie why do they do it . Mr. Murphy i think the recruiting arm is so effective, that theyve been at least conditioned or brainwashed to think the United States is evil, its people are evil, the way of life is not the way you need to live your life, according to their ideology, and i think they want to bring the most harm and pain to the United States. What a way to do it then attack soft targets . Charlie how much progress are we making in combating them in the battle of ideas and the war of ideas about these kinds of acts, and all the questions that arise from that, whether it is a misreading of islam, etc. , etc. . Mr. Murphy the answer is no, we are not. I think that is where we have failed as a government and community. We have failed tremendously. I remove or eight years ago talking about programs that we were going to use to counter the narrative, to counter violent extremism, to work with our communities, to get into the communities, to educate the youth, and there have been fits and starts over who is going to run that government. How do you get in there and counter the message . They have been working with social media companies. They have not been very cooperative. When you look at twitter, facebook, and some of the other companies, we have failed miserably at that. I think that is another leg in the stool. The longterm vision is, how do you counter the narrative . I will tell you, the europeans, london, u. K. , they also recognized that they had to do some of that. I dont have the visibility into how effective that was in london, but they brought people early on after a number of attacks, particularly after the july attacks in 2005. They brought a number of experts and to start working with the community and tried to get a better understanding and counter the narrative. We need a lot of work in this country to counter the narrative for our youth, and for the people in some of these communities that feel they do not fit into america. Charlie we were talking to the director of Homeland Security on our program this week. Jeh johnson. He basically said, i think for the first time i had heard him say it, that access to guns is now a Homeland Security issue. Do you agree . Mr. Murphy look, i think when these events happen, we get focused on issues like this. Is this a gun availability problem . Do too many individuals who want to harm individuals in this country have weapons, and they should not have weapons . Absolutely. I think that is a focus, but i am not sure it is a primary focus of what we need to do. You can get weapons in this country. States have different laws. There are private gun sales. Even some of the effective methods that they are currently talking about what help mitigate the risk to a degree, but if that people still want to get weapons in this country, unless you turned it 180 degrees and no one could get any weapons ever, i dont think that will solve the problem. Solving the problem is looking at a holistic picture of this, what we are doing on intelligence gathering, countering violent extremisms message, and maybe on the margins, making sure that people who are on a suspected terrorist list dont get a weapon, or the fbi is notified whether or not they have been under suspicion, but the investigation is closed. If we have enough evidence to suggest that someone is actually a terrorist threat, but not enough to continue an investigation because of civil liberties, we certainly need to make sure they do not get firearms. Charlie do we have to ask ourselves, is there enough outreach . I dont mean this by monitoring, but is there enough outreach with various communities so that there is a sense of if someone is behaving in a way that suggests a profile, that we ought to have some conversation about that . Mr. Murphy absolutely. There are pockets in this country where the government has done a great job at that. The dhs has a tremendous outreach to the community and to different imams, different religious groups. They run citizens academies. They educate the people on what the fbi can and cannot do. They get them to the communities, they work with them, and say, this is what we are looking for. We need you to call us and tell us. There has been a lot of success. There are a number of successes if you look back of people coming forward and saying, this just is not right. I just wanted to let you know about it, and then the government can take some time of action, whether that his intervention, maybe an investigation, maybe referring them to some type of Community Involvement to help counter the way they are feeling, or the message they are receiving from the recruitment arm of isil, al qaeda, or any of the other terrorist groups . There is a lot of outreach being done, but not enough. It is not done in a consistent and systematic basis across the United States. There are pockets of excellence, and there are a lot of areas where the resources are not there, the time and effort is not there, the understanding is not there. There is a lot of work to be done. If you look at the 9 11 commission report, they specifically talk about the failure of imagination which allowed this to happen. What i fear now is, because this thread has changed, and because the way they are recruiting is changed, and because the homegrown extremists here in the United States, i think we are at another failure of imagination point. We need to get our arms wrapped around all those Different Things that you and i talked about tonight and put this plan in place, and really take it seriously. The longer we wait, another tragic event happens. I dont want us to get to the point where we are numb about this. Charlie fair enough, but where does that start . Who is responsible for making that happen . It starts with the fbi director and the justice department. Mr. Murphy you are exactly right about where it has to come from. This group that they would put together, just like any other high profile, usually on a reactive basis, you have to have this group, they have to lead this effort, whether it is from the white house, intelligence communities, the department of state, community groups, countrywide community groups, and state and locals, you need to put this group together. They need to have someone shepherding it through every day, weekly meetings. What are we doing . What is our progress . They need to set up a strategy. What i am afraid is that we do not have a holistic strategy to cover the areas we have talked about. We have people running out and doing one offs instead of a complete strategy. It has to start with the administration and cascade down all the agencies in order to mitigate the risk. Charlie thank you for joining us. Mr. Murphy thank you. Charlie we will be right back. Charlie we turn now to politics. This morning, donald trump said he would meet with the National Rifle association to discuss gun laws. Their meeting will concern not allowing people on the terrorist watch list or the nofly list to buy guns. At a rally in orlando today, trump also reiterated his claim that the orlando trilogy could have been mitigated had more people been armed. Mr. Trump if some of those great people that were in that club that night had guns strapped to their waist or ankle, and if the bullets were going in the other direction, aimed at this guy, which was just open target practice, you would have had a situation which would have been horrible, but nothing like the carnage that we all suffered this weekend. Charlie at a town hall meeting in hampton, virginia, Hillary Clinton focused on national defense. Ms. Clinton i do not underestimate the extent of the challenge we face, but i am absolutely confident that we can keep our country safe, and i am sure that if we Work Together and make this not a republican or democrat debate, but an american mission, that is exactly what we will do. Charlie this afternoon, clinton also released a video in which she criticized trumps proposed ban on muslims and for suggesting that president obama is on the side of terrorists. Joining me is john heilemann, the cohost of with all due respect. Did he drilled down . Did he modify . Did he do what . John he said a next ordinary thing today, which is not what we captured with that video clip. It is a discussion over gun control. He said this extraordinary thing today, in the face of the widespread panic that has now grown to the Republican Party, as the republican establishment, elected officials, and others are looking at trumps whole numbers following and looking at