One of the reasons i wanted to write a book was a line Abigail Adams wrote to her husband about this time. She said, future generations who will reap the blessings will scarcely know the hardships and sufferings we have endured on their behalf. And we dont. We do not sufficiently no. Mr. Rose i knew she wrote that. When i read that, it reminded me that these people knew they were making history. Mr. Mccullough absolutely. Absolutely. They knew they were being called upon to play a part in one of the great historical dramas of all time, and that they would be judged by how they played their parts, each individually. Henry knox, wonderful, young henry knox, was one of the most admirable people in the whole world. Mr. Rose aid to George Washington. Mr. Mccullough commander of artillery. A former boston bookseller who knew nothing more about the military then he read in books. 25 years old. He writes the very day the text of the independence declaration arrives from philadelphia, he writes, as we play our parts, history will judge us ill or favorably. They know they are part of history. I think that is extremely important to understand, as you pointed out. That gave them a kind of sense of responsibility, a duty they did not have much cause to have hope when you consider the odds against them. No real army. No navy. Excuse me. No money. No gunpowder. Washington had never commanded an army in battle in his life for he was given the role of commander in chief. Mr. Rose speaking of knowing his role in history, George Washington, who we get to know here, was carried forward because he understood what he had to do, even though he did not have a great strategy, even though he was, as you say, not a great general by any definition other than that he was a great leader. Mr. Mccullough he was a leader. That is the key to washington. He is not an intellectual like john adams or jefferson. He is not a great orator like patrick henry. He is not a brilliant napoleonic figure. He is a leader. People will follow him. And he has absolute integrity. And he will not give up. And he never forgets what it is about, what the war is for. And again and again, you have people saying, they are not going to quit because i will not leave this good man. At one point it was down to 3000 troops. That is all he had left. Hundreds, thousands had either quit, gone home when their enlistments expired, deserted, went over to the enemy mr. Rose because they were given pardons. Mr. Mccullough absolutely. People in new jersey, when washington and the army were retreating across new jersey, when the general lord howe , the british commanders offered pardons for anybody who would sign the loyalty oath, people in new jersey came by the thousands to sign as quickly as they could. If there had been daily polls taken and run in the newspapers, it would have disintegrated immediately because people would realize this does not even have a chance. Mr. Rose just a couple points here. You thought of this story midway through the john adams book. Mr. Mccullough yes i did. Mr. Rose what caused you to think about it . The letter from abigail . Mr. Mccullough it was when i was writing the chapter dealing with the summer after the declaration of independence was signed. And the whole war effort is starting to fall apart. And then came the battle of brooklyn, the escape from brooklyn, the miraculous night escape by washington. And when you are writing a biography, you cannot stray from your subject very much. Elizabeth longford, who wrote the great biography of queen victoria, said you cannot leave your subject for more than five pages. And she was right, you cant. I badly wanted to write about in some detail the escape from brooklyn. You cannot do it here, but you can do it in the next book. So i began with which surprises some people with george iii going before parliament in the october of 1775 to declare the american colonies are in rebellion, and that their leaders, these rabblerousers mr. Rose he calls them the unhappy americans. Mr. Mccullough unhappy americans, absolutely. They are traitors. He says so. He, the king, and the british power, british army, British Empire, are going to bring these people to heel. They are going to crush the rebellion. And it is when that speech reaches boston, on the first day of the new year, because of the great delay of crossing the ocean, the first day of 1776, that people in the army under washington, people everywhere, realize this is not going to be a short, unpleasant business, which will wind up with reconciliation, and we better be fighting for independence. They do not dare say it right away, although some are writing, like mr. Rose another aid to George Washington. Mr. Mccullough who knew no more of the military when he joined up, and when he was made a general at the age of 33, he knew no more of the military than what he had read in books. But we have to remember that was the age they felt if you want to learn how to do something or know something was a close study of books, urges the whole idea of the enlightenment. Washington, green and knox all had about the equivalent of what we would say a fifth grade education. Mr. Rose everything i know about this is because of your book. These two guys are new englanders. George washington is a very patrician virginian. Mr. Mccullough and arguably dislikes new englanders. He looks down on them. He thinks they are dirty and unruly. They have this unfortunate idea that they would like to decide things for themselves, which you of course cannot have an army. But he overcomes that bias, which is a real inner struggle. He has to, because it is all he has got, a new england army. He has some people from the middle colonies that join. Mr. Rose he takes command at age 43. Mr. Mccullough had never commanded an army in battle before in his life. Never. And he said to congress, i am qualified for this job. I am not the man. But he also knew he was better than anybody else they could pick. And they choose him not because he is a great general they know he fought in the french and indian war and had a distinguished record. They pick him because they know him as a person, and they know him as a politician. He is a political general, and that is sometimes used in a dismissive or a less than complementary way. We should thank god that he was a political general, because he never forgets who is boss. Congress is boss. Mr. Rose you have washington at 43. He goes to the Constitutional Convention in a uniform, even though he is saying, i am not the man. Mr. Mccullough he is certainly available. Mr. Rose you have a contradiction there. Mr. Mccullough yes and no. He is being honest. He will call he will serve as called upon to serve. He is ready to serve. He has his uniform. He is reminding them that he is a military man at heart. But he is very genuine. Look, i am not the ideal fellow for this job. And he makes some very bad mistakes in judgment. He was outfoxed, outflanked, outnumbered to be sure, made to look pretty inept at the battle of brooklyn. He was so indecisive at the time of the siege of Fort Washington that he really cost that bastion that they thought was of the siege of Fort Washington impregnable, along with several thousands of his troops. These were terrible defeats, very serious. And yet he did not quit. He did not succumb to his own sense of defeat and failure. And the people who followed him, with only a few exceptions, were determined to stay with him, as was congress. Mr. Rose it is said about him that he had this special quality, and that you could not quite put your finger on it, but you knew from the people who saw him up close that he had it, almost like an xfactor. Mr. Mccullough yes. He was a commanding figure. Mr. Rose tall . Mr. Mccullough oh, yes. 62, probably weighed 190, 200 pounds. Perfect physical condition. The prime of his life. He was a young man, he was only 43, but they were all young man. Knox, 25. Adams was 40. Jefferson was 33 when he wrote the declaration of independence. We forget this. Mr. Rose franklin is the only one who had the age. Mr. Mccullough he was from a different generation. He was old enough to have been their father. But we see them as the whitehaired founding fathers. Patriarchs. Elder statesman. Dan and at this point, they are not. It is a Young Americans cause. And they were not in the majority. Ever, the people who were for the revolution, were never in the majority. They were maybe a third. No one knows what the proportions really were. There were not polls or surveys taken. But at least as many people were against the war as were for it. Mr. Rose and they knew what would probably happen to them, the leaders, if they lost. Off with their heads. Mr. Mccullough yes. Mr. Rose they would be all hung at the crack of dawn. Mr. Mccullough yes. Mr. Rose let me talk about the war for a second. 1775, they go to boston. They win some victories in 1776. No victories . Nothing . Didnt they surround them in boston . Mr. Mccullough they drove the british out of boston. They made it impossible for the british to remain in boston. This incredible feat of ingenuity and doing the impossible, hauling the cannon mr. Rose did that give them confidence . Mr. Mccullough oh, absolutely. Probably too much confidence. After all, they had driven the British Empire out of boston. Mr. Rose and this is the biggest superpower in the world. And they had taken them on and driven them out of boston. Mr. Mccullough they were jubilant. They were a victorious team. They marched to new york to face them on the field of battle for the first time. They suddenly have a name. They are called the continental army. They have a flag to march under. They had their general and they are going to be joined in new york by the people from new jersey, new yorkers, pennsylvanians and so forth. It will become more than it was in boston, truly a continental army. Mr. Rose and what happened . Mr. Mccullough they got sick in great numbers. Epidemic dysentery, smallpox. They did not understand the rules of hygiene. Washington divided his army, leaving maine leaving half in manhattan and taking half over to brooklyn. Mr. Rose a mistake . Mr. Mccullough it was a mistake to try to defend new york. It was indefensible because they had no seapower, no navy. The british came in with a fleet of 400 ships. Mr. Rose if the british navy had gone up the hudson, could it have been over . Mr. Mccullough yes indeed, it could have been. When washington fought the battle of brooklyn with about 9000 troops, it was soundly defeated. 300 americans or so killed. Over a thousand taken prisoner, including three generals. It was awful. There were pockets of valorous performance on the part of some of our troops. And the miracle is they did not lose more. But at that point, the army was in effect in the midst of a real trap. All the british had to do was bring their fleet up the east river, but the wind was in the wrong direction. If the wind had been in the other direction on the night of august 28, 29th, i think it would have all been over. Washington and half of his army would have been trapped. Mr. Rose no United States of america. Just because of the wind. History would have changed. Mr. Mccullough the next day, after the defeat at the battle of long island, they decide they have to escape. The night of august 29, they organize a retreat at night back across the east river, by rounding up every boat they can get their hands on, on the east river, the hudson, new jersey. Everywhere they could get boats. Brought them all over, and they took that army off of brooklyn in the night, 9000 men, cannon, equipment, horses, everything, without the loss of a single man. Now, an organized retreat in the face of an overpowering army is difficult to bring off successfully. And the fact that this amateur army, undisciplined troops, green troops, people who had never marched with a rifle or musket before, they pulled this off and it worked. It was as miraculous as the wind being in their favor. Mr. Rose you have to realize what they were facing. The largest Expeditionary Force ever mounted. Mr. Mccullough who had just defeated them in a humongous battle, a huge battle, the largest battle ever fought in the north American Continent up to that point. And the people who saved the army were the marblehead, massachusetts mariners, under a tough little general named john glover. So, you have a combination of fate or luck or circumstance, the hand of god, as many said, with the wind being exactly what they needed. You also had the skill, the ability of those mariners to pull that off. The boats were so loaded down, water was only inches below the gunwales. No running lights. They had to be absolutely silent. If the enemy had any idea they were trying to evacuate, they could have descended on the army and annihilated them, truly, right there. Then they get across, most of them, morning is coming. There are a lot of them are still back on the brooklyn side. And it is going to be light, and that will be curtains for them. In comes a providential fog that covers all of brooklyn. But it does not happen on the new york side. Now, if you were writing a novel and you had that happen, you they would say no. Mr. Rose that is too much of a perfect weather. Mr. Mccullough that is not real. Mr. Rose at this time, as they are retreating, what was the mood of washington . Mr. Mccullough one of abject discouragement. He was exhausted. He had not slept for three nights or more. They all were exhausted. And he i am sure he realized that he played his hand wrong, that he misjudged the whole situation. He never covered what was called the jamaica pass. There is a pass through the rough ridge that runs along long island. They had nobody posted there to stop the british. So the british sent 10,000 men on a nine mile march through the night, up and around, and they completely outflanked us. It was a perfect military maneuver, perfectly handled, perfectly performed by the british, just as they are landing on long island. Everything was done just right. If general howe had attacked after he had them on the run and they were retreating back to the fortifications of what is presentday brooklynites. Heights. Yn mr. Rose what does that say about the british, their leadership and tenacity . Mr. Mccullough it is a big puzzle that historians and military scholars have debated for 229 years. Why did he not move in for the kill . Some say he did not do it cousin had had such bloody experience at bunker hill, where the americans were in position in a high ground trench, and he was not going to attack. It had been awful. They lost a thousand men. But on the other hand, he would attack a frontal position later on at Fort Washington. I think he felt, why destroy them completely when we are going to win this . Lets pull back a little bit. Lets not just crush them, because we want them back in. Mr. Rose they wanted to maintain the union. Mr. Mccullough politically, he was a whig. Mr. Rose net and up with the south after the civil war. Mr. Mccullough that does not mean he was not a tough and professional soldier. He was very smart and very courageous. Mr. Rose the two howes were brothers . Richard and william. Mr. Mccullough richard was the admiral and william was the general. They were very highly placed, very influential figures in london society. They were aristocrats, as all officers were. And any picture we have of bumbling aristocratic fools in high command during our revolution is simply not so. There are many misconceptions. Mr. Rose ok, what about our misconceptions of george iii . Iii isullough george seen as the crazy king who lost the colonies. Mr. Rose and in fact . Mr. Mccullough intelligent, interesting man, very sympathetic character. A great collector of books. A wonderful painter. He was a musician. He was a devoted father and husband. He was intelligent. Samuel johnson thought he was charming company, and Samuel Johnson did not judge people lightly. But, he saw it as his duty to crush this rebellion. His mother said george, be king. When your mother tells you to be king, you be king. He was still pretty young. And the madness of king george, which we know about because of the play and the movie, that does not come for 20 years later. Long after the fact. Mr. Rose let me say this, this is history at the ground level. This is history from the battlefield. This is diaries from soldiers. Mr. Mccullough that is the real story i wanted to tell. Mr. Rose and you like some of them. Hodgkins. Your favorite character . Mr. Mccullough ipswich shoemaker, and fitch, from connecticut. Mr. Rose tell me about both of them. Mr. Mccullough hodgkins was a shoemaker. Had children and a wife at home, sarah, to whom he wrote regularly no matter what was happening. And they are wonderful letters. And he talks about being told to march for this glorious cause. I will march. He fights and he fights on. After the escape from brooklyn, in this terribly demoralized army, he is writing to his wife, and he has just received a letter that the little boy, their youngest child, has died. He has known the little boy was sick and was very worried about him. We forget sometimes, these people are thinking about their families, they are thinking about their loved ones. They have been defeated. It looks like it is over. They are exhausted, they are filthy, dirty. They have no proper uniforms or anything. He hears that this child he adores has died, and yet he picks himself up and he goes on, and he will not stop. Mr. Rose because they believed in their leader, they believed in their mission, they believed in the holy idea they were creating a nation . Mr. Mccullough yes, i think so. Joseph hodgkins and fitch never talk about the declaration of independence. It is interesting. I never found life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness mentioned. Mr. Rose how about equality . Nation,llough yes, our our country we are going to decide this ourselves. We are going to have the society and way of life we want. We are not going to be dictated to. Mr. Rose that is what always drives revolutions. Mr. Mccullough they are not fighting because they are oppressed and poor. Americas have the highest standard of living, average americans, of any place in the world. Mr. Rose but they want to shape their own destiny. Mr. Mccullough exactly. And they were proud of who they were. And they wanted to show these brits that they could fight as well as anyone. Given some experience, they are learning from experience. Washington, green, knox, glover they are all learning as they are going along. Mr. Rose that was one of the values washington had. He could learn from experience. Mr. Mccullough exactly. When he is defeated, he does not say, woe is me, pity me. But what can i learn from this . Experience had been his teacher all through life. His father died when he was quite young. He was on his own from about the age of 16. These other people were, too. The fitch story is