Ago. I told him the best thing i think to do was to pull this bill and he agreed. I will not sugarcoat this, this is a disappointing day for us. Covers kelsey snell congress for the washington post. Welcome. What a week. Kelsey it has been a whirlwind. We started out thinking we would be ending with the first appeal of the Affordable Care act n. L. It has gone up in smoke. Charlie what does that mean . For the future of the president , the speaker of the house, the Freedom Caucus and democrats . Kelsey we have heard the president say this is because of democrats. This did not work out because democrats would not help them out. What happened is the Republican Party could not coalesce around a single message. They cannot decide what they wanted to do once obamacare was repealed. They agreed that repeal was the goal but the finer details wound up being them. There is a request and of what kind of governing coalition exists within the Republican Party and how republicans in the house will Work Together, how that will work with the president and if anybody is in control. Charlie does it mean the Freedom Caucus has some veto . Kelsey they do have enough votes that if they stick together, they can stop any legislation. This was a real test for them. If they backed down, given that what the president and walked away saying he was charming, a good salesman and won us over and walked away, they would not have that power. They reaffirmed something which is that they can stick together better than other factions of the Republican Party. Charlie what does it mean for President Trumps ability to use the bully pulpit . Kelsey it means actually, we dont really know. What we know is he can pressure some people, but not everybody. We dont know exactly how voters and is constituents will respond. It is entirely possible they dont blame trump and blame House Speaker paul ryan because as trump said, he did not want this to be called trumpcare. He wanted to be called something else. Ryancare stuc. This failure may go to the speaker. Charlie doesnt the president need ryan . Kelsey a does but it is a born to remember that ryan shares some of these goals. Ryan would like to get tax reform done. It is something he has been talking about since i can remember. They are three this is a goal. Some people feel like repealing the a portal care act was an adopted issue for President Trump and tax reform is the core of the principles he ran on, he believes. Charlie reforming regulation together. Kelsey they can find a lot of common ground. Tax reform is really hard. I was a tax reporter for many years. People discount how complicated it can be. It is a reason in this not and why in a generation this is something that takes. Time we will be watching closely on when they get started the process of doing tax reform. Charlie does it affect immigration . Kelsey i think it is its own separate thing. They can build coalitions with democrats and do something of an immigration plan that builds consensus. At this point, it seems like they need to reset and figure out what the next step and why this is something that takes. Time we will be is. Charlie where is the confirmation of neil gorsuch . Kelsey we were expecting that to happen not this next week but we have not heard from leaders about whether or not he wants to move up that process. So, where it things now is democrats say they are willing to filibuster him. We are going to see a big blowout fight in the senate. The big question is how long it takes. Charlie what about Infrastructure Spending . Kelsey it is one of those things we have heard about for a long time. It was a goal of this Current White House and campaign. We have not seen any legislation or any solid proposals beyond the idea that a president wants to make a large investment there. That is an area where details matter. Talking about roads and bridges, highways or trains . Fleshed out. Be charlie is the president s credibility damaged . Kelsey i think it is for some people. It is yet to be seen how the core voters seen. They seem to be flexible and how they view trump. They support him as a person. It is about Personality First for many. This may or may not change the feelings about him. If he can successfully deflect criticism of what happened this week over to the House Speaker or someone else, it is possible he walked away unscathed. Charlie thank you for joining us. Kelsey thank you for having me. Charlie will continue with al hunt. You seeingt with lots of weeks in washington both as a reporter on the hill and other remarkably interesting stories you have followed how does this matchup . Al when i was with you on i thought it was an exhausting week. It is 10 times more exhausting today that it was three days ago. I thought it was an exhausting week. I dont think i have never quite seen a week quite like this, may be watergate. You have to go back 40 some years. Seen ahat, i have never week like this with all the legislative and executive and lawenforcement things. The vote today in the house, the decision to pull the Health Care Seen a week like this with all the bill, i must admit was a shocker. I thought when you get this close, you will pass it. This is a devastating defeat for trump, butfor donald also for the Republican Party which for seven years had promised something they cannot deliver on. Charlie does this mean according to what paul ryan trut also for the Republican Party which for seven years had said after pulling the bill that for the perceivable future, the Affordable Care act will remain in place . Al they have no choice. They would try to do this and that, but trump wants them to move on to other things, taxes in particular. Once there is blood in the water, it does not go away. Will turn think they to other issues now but this defeat will last for a long time, including on the campaign trail next year. Go back to 2010. Anythere was centerpiece to what hundreds of republicans promised, repeal and replace obamacare. It was an empty promise because the product they came up with was what almost nobody liked. Hospitals didnt like it, consumers didnt like it, liberals, conservatives. Approval. You can market dog food as well as you want, but if it is not good, dogs will not eat it. Dombers of the freema caucus, the chairman of the appropriations committee, barbara comstack, a moderate who said no. We cannot do this. Charlie what does it mean in terms of the rest of the president s agenda . Is that theyeans wasted a couple of months. Said the, pat moynihan first year of the presidency is important. They have now wasted, i dont know, 15 wasted. They will turn to taxes. That is not going to be easy. The one thing that is apparent, probably apparent beforehand, trump is really not a political threat to these members unless the member from a conservative district who was voting against trump on liberal or more moderate grounds. None of these members are afraid that trump will come out and hurt them. Let me give the president his due. And think he lobbied this went member to member as effectively as any president in a long time. A lot a lot of people did nothing he could do that. He did that very well. He had a product that i dont think he knew much about. Charlie we talk about the house Freedom Caucus. How is it different from the tea party and the caucus that it bred in the house during the reign of john boehner . Al it is similar. Very similar members. I think they feel emboldened. They have been elected three or four times. They think they are safe now. They are uncomfortable with trump. The are things they like about him a lot immigration and social issues. That dont think he is a true conservative. I think they will be with him on some things but not afraid to stand up to him on Something Like this. Charlie what about immigration . Al well come i think they would be with him on immigration. I think the problem they have is they put together a coalition i dont think you can get any major immigration through, charlie, without democrats. Right now, the mood is not very receptive on the democratic side to Work Together on much of anything. That might change by day but now it is not promising. Charlie what does it do to the factions in the white house . Al there were hundreds of members. That was the prime commitment they made. We are going to repeal and replace it. Easy. Peal part was very and the replace part was impossible. They had a bill that 24 Million People lost their insurance. They were making deals that would not cut the deficit and it was unpopular. You cannot blame this on the white house. Therefore, i am not sure change i am sure steve bannon will say i told you so. Charlie thank you, my friend. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Charlie what they have the votes or not . That was the question in washington all week long. President trump insisted that house of representatives vote at 3 30 p. M. This afternoon on the republican bill to repeal and replace obamacare, but at the last minute, the president told paul ryan to pull the bill. Mike allen joins us now from washington where he has been tracking the story. He is the editor of the access am newsletter. What somein with might say of the autopsy what happened . Mike we had epic miscalculations at both ends of pennsylvania avenue from beginning to end. So, President Trump beginning. We are seeing in the New York Times he decided to go ahead to plungeh care, ahead with health care rather than taking up the much easier win of tax reform almost on a lark. A quick conversation with you did not delve into the pluses and minuses. Of the other end of the pennsylvania avenue, at the beginning, speaker ryan looking at this more from a matter of policy than politics. When you talk to house leadership about how rough this looks for the parts of their conference, they would retreat to policy answers. In the end, this came down to hear politics. Persontoperson. Miscalculation at the end. Until the very end, people thought it would be knit and talk. They were hoping that they would limp over the line but the bottom fell out. The numbers were going to be terrible. That is why they reversed their course and pulled the bell until of having a vote. They were going to have the vote even if you lose. The calculation was that you say you tried, that you blame are more and if you machiavellian, you have a list of who was with you and who is against you. You have a list of what republicans were not being helpful. That was appealing to the white house. Pair this where they were wrong. They were looking at this as a vote unto itself. It is not a series of one offs. Life is a story, it is a tapestry. Whatever happens today will have huge consequences for the rest of the trump agenda. That is the big takeaway from today is that now Everything Else will be harder. Tax reform and eventually infrastructure, whatever they want to do on immigration. Just among republicans, there is a trust. There is not appetite, not sea legs, confidence that ryan can deliver. And, it makes anything they want to do more complicated and could cause them to have to pull in their sights. Charlie does it mean members of the congress and Republican Party and the Freedom Caucus are not afraid of the president . Mike that is true. The fact that has been true for a while is part of this. Charlie, we have talked about how President Trump, because of the way he was elected, had a very powerful tool which is the digital bully pulpit. In a way no other president has had, he can use his twitter feed and direct communication to lobby and punish and stroked individual members. It looks like the president focused on the member to member individual part of this fairly late. We were talking about how the must of been a lot of trips, invitations to maralago playing golf. You would have thought that would be happening sooner. The president was not directly engaged with his members and at the same time, he was getting much popular. This is where he is paying the check for some of the distractions that you and i have been covering over these weeks and months. Not only were they not afraid of him, they were not aligned with him. The twist than what happened. There is an argument for the politics of 2018, for the politics of 2020, republicans actually may be better off. The reason they had so much trouble figuring out how to work this rubiks cube is the politics of it back home for these members were terrible. Whichever way these members went, they were going to have a problem back home. After campaigning on this for seven years. Repeated votes to get rid of obamacare. They needed to try, but charlie, this is something you dont very corridork about in the between us and new york and us and washington. World affect of this bill were very worrisome to a andof members of Congress World should have been worrisome for the white house. Charlie, you have covered how much of the trump coalition, some of the struggling, hardworking americans who are having a rough time were dependent on obamacare. A lot of them either needed part of the Obamacare Program or people that they love were involved. The effe and should have been worrisome for the white house. Ct of it had not kicked in. It was going to take a while. Republicans may be better off being able to blame obama, blame democrats and not own the Health Care System which under the best circumstances was not going to get better overnight. Under this bill , it would have given them a lot of explaining to do. Charlie what does this thing about paul ryan other than the fact he has the same problems that john boehner had . Said a great tweet somewhere john boehner is sipping a glass of merlot. It is harder than it looks, young men. , man. This marriage between the speaker and the president , as know, was always going to be arranged and a difficult marriage. At the end, when they were in such different places, the white house clearly was planning to take credit if this passed and blame paul ryan if it did not. And, the president tried to bully the speaker of the end, telling him to go ahead and take this vote. The president thinking in classic deal terms and that is againl street, deals die and again until they are finally done. The gamble was you go ahead, get this vote and eventually you are going to be better off. The speakers saw his support unit operating and new evaporating and knew that was not going to be the case. Republicans are moving on, not trying to fix this on monday morning. Plunging into tax reform. Vent, i hadg at an e a conversation with the treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin, his first onstage interview. We talked about tax reform and he was arguing that in some ways tax reform is simpler than health care. I said, did you talk to anybody around here in 1986 and you can get some skeptics on that. Hes arguing that tax reform is good. There are also people who lose out on the other hand. Anotherre plunging into fraudtely political argument. Something again where policy, house, senate, all in slightly different places. Speaker ryan insisted on moving fraud argument. Something again whereaheadadjust more extensive to bring goods into the country. And it could raise 1 trillion that can be used for tax uses elsewhere. But it makes things cost more at walmart. You are a senator from arkansas. That is not a very tough decision. I asked Steve Mnuchin today about the border adjustment package. I said to him, lets with this r say i work at walmart, shop at walmart. A to this why the border adjustment tax is good for me. You saw the answer there is no particular embrace the white house. Why that is important and these packages come and go, the white house already is in a very different place in the house. Where a break for one person is an an egregious outrage for another, trying to work that tetris after this last experience, very hard. Week will think this show that President Trump is facing the collision of some of his campaign promises. In direct collision with each other. Some of the things he promised, he cannot deliver because it affects other things he promised. Week will show that President Trump is facing themike that is a very t point and it is why you cannot make the math work on health care. For every single change you made that made it more palatable to conservatives, you know only made it less palatable to moderates, but you made it less likely to pass the senate, more likely these members were in the very vivid memorable words of tom cotton, walking the plank, taking a tough vote that had something to have no chance of becoming law. That is why there were so much pressure on the speaker the last 12 hours. There is no way the members wanted him to take a vote that clearly was going to go down or go nowhere. You are right about this collision, charlie, not only within the issues that among the issues. Charlie thank you so much. Mike good to be on. Charlie we will be right back. Stay with us. Charlie what is truth in politics . Specifically as it applies to President Trump. Is truth dead . Of timeshe cover magazine. It is the title of the latest column in the New York Times. He joins us now from washington. Nancy gibbs, where are we in this question of truth and how difficult is it for journalists . Nancy journalists have been debating a long time of when you say someone is lying and the challenge is that it is much easier for us to check facts. We always do that. Although this statement is true, the statement is not true, partially true. When you talk about someone lying, there is an added layer of intent. What is it that they know or believe . Are the mistaking or intentionally stating a falsehood . I think that is where this president has posed a particular challenge to the people covering it. A great many t