to be a good time trialist and you have to be a good mountain climber. and he wasn't particularly strong in those two areas. to me he didn't have what it took in those early years. >> lance armstrong was then with the american motorola team. so too was new zealander steven swart. steven swart says that in 1995, when phil anderson had left the team, the riders complained that their european opponents were doping. >> did you talk with lance armstrong about the need to start using e.p.o. to be competitive? >> we had -- we had a discussion about it, yeah. >> what did mr. armstrong say? >> he did say, you know, if we're going to the tour we've got to -- we've got to perform. we need the results. >> what did that mean? >> i think he just -- you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. you know?