be seen within 14 days. the solution at the phoenix va according to dewinter and others inside this hospital, keep one list that lied, showing veterans were getting appointments and another list, a secret list, that tallied the true and shameful backlog. >> so as long as the secret list kept growing the goal was being met. >> uh-huh. yes. >> reporter: that's terrible. >> it is beyond horrible. >> reporter: there simply were not enough doctors, not enough appointments to handle new patients. backlogged patients and yes, very sick patients. dewinter, a scheduling clerk, was making life-and-death decisions. >> and that really overtook even the wait list now i have a consult where veterans are very sick.