a little more transparent. i do understand why they have -- they take that position sometimes behind closed doors. i was chairman of the ethics committee, we did all our proceedings behind closed doors because of personnel matters. at the end of the day, this isn't about process and procedure. if the facts aren't on your side, if the policy isn't on your side, you argue process and procedure. that's what's happening here. because let's face it, the substance of these allegations are very serious, and that bill taylor testimony yesterday or his opening statement is very compelling. and it basically is pointing out there's a quid pro quo, aid was withheld until -- it was being withheld until he made a public statement, it was being withheld unless he was going to dig up dirt. i mean, this is really bad. this is wrong. you cannot use your federal office to dig up dirt on your political opponent, even without the quid pro quo. >> congressman duffy? >> charlie, if you've spent time in a courtroom, you don't let