if you just take the prospect of what happens next, what is the iraqi government doing militarily to push isis back, they want to go into ramadi, which is now held by isis or fallujah or mosul. what will they go in with? they'll go in with the iraqi army which is basically a collection of shiite militias. that's what it is. that's seen as an occupying army. that's not a prescription for reintegration. again, we can cobble together a bunch of sunni tribes and put them on the payroll, and that's basically what -- that helped turn the war back in 2008 when the united states was trying to get out. but that's not a permanent solution. and i just don't -- i don't see it. >> michele, what do you say to that fatalism? >> well, it's hard to be optimistic about iraq, but i am not quite as fatalistic. the question is whether this recent set of protests and this moment, with the support of the