true. >> that helps him to say. if you are arguing that giuliani may have been out there operating on his own and not for me. and the fact he had all of these other potential pieces of client work with ukraine government officials helps him. >> for sure. so i'm just saying it gets complicated because if rudy doesn't want that narrative depicted -- >> might be out of his hands at this point given the wealth of evidence. >> what was the white house response to the decision regarding don mcgahn being forced to testify. they're appealing it. buys them a little more time. there's going to be the appeal hearing. the judge's wording was very tough saying we don't have kings. that's a tough ruling for this white house to confront. >> it's a tough ruling but i think that we tend to look at these decisions that come down from the courts in particular piecemeal in terms of here's an individual decision and here's a statement from a judge. and there are people who are following this who are going to recognize that voters who are going to recognize that that's a pretty damning statement about the administration but what we've seen is the administration is going to ignore it and put