almost semantic, but either way, it would be very hard on the economy and the prescription for a very deep recession. >> so let's just be precise. you're an excellent economist. let's walk through. let's say they don't. i hope they do reach at least a temporary agreement to raise the nation's debt ceiling, but let's say they don't, come october 17th, how much flexibility is there that the treasury secretary would have to make sure that the u.s. doesn't default? >> okay, so if we're talking about default on the debt, that means the treasury not paying bond holders. then there's some debate about that. now, the treasury would say that they don't have the legal authority to do that. and, you know, even if they decided to go ahead and pay bond holders, there would be lawsuits. and if i were an investor and i thought about the legal risks involved, i would still not be buying bonds, even selling bonds, so the implication would be higher interest rates.