most powerful of cartel leaders? what was it about him, his influence, the way he conducted business especially after the way you mentioned he's still illiterate he didn't have much education. what is the secret? >> he's a very canny businessman. he's been very violent and serb certainly hasn't shied away from using violence. his organization is probably responsible for tens of thousands of murders over the last decade or so. he's also a smart guy who put together an intricate -- chapo guzman actually invented the border tunnel. he's the guy that 25 years ago thought to burrow underneath the border and so it's not surprising when you think about it in that respect that he would use a tunnel to escape this maximum security prison. >> and that's what makes this so remarkable because it would seem the common knowledge of the tunnelling this engineering